Sid: A few weeks ago I interviewed Jennifer Toledo. She has a children’s ministry if you remember; she was the one that was in Africa, and she also was the one that had a real crisis I believe she was 19 years old and she was in love with someone. She was ready to marry him, and the Holy Spirit said “I’ll bless you if you marry him, but he’s not My best choice.” She decided at that young age “I’m going for the gold.” I mean how few young women would do this. She was crushed, but she said “God I love you more than anyone or anything.” Well God honored that faith, and Jennifer is now married to Jonatan Toledo. I have the both of them on the telephone.  They are the heads of Global Childrens Movement located in Foley, Alabama. The fruit of their marriage, Jennifer is your little daughter… How old is she?

Jennifer: 5 months.

Sid: Tell me her name it’s a Swahili word?

Jennifer: Her name is Malaika Harvest.

Sid: Now what does Malaika mean?

Jennifer: Malaika is a Swahili word for angel. We just felt like it was prophetically symbolic that we call her, her name actually means angel at harvest. We believe she is a picture of her generation that the Lord is releasing, angels at harvest.

Sid: Jonatan, I think it is so amazing of how you got to the United States. Would you just very briefly tell us where you’re from and how that happened?

Jonatan: Well I am originally from Guatemala, but I was living in Quito, Ecuador in South America with my parents. A good friend now, Shawn Bolz, he went to Ecuador on a trip. Before we met he had a dream the night before about an invitation God was giving me to come to Kansas City. So the next day we met and he brought the word, and I knew it was the Lord. I had peace, even though I didn’t know him at all, or I didn’t know anything about Kansas City at the time; we just knew it was God.  So after like 2 months I was able to come to Kansas City.

Sid: So it’s a real miracle that you came to Kansas City, and of course you met Jennifer. Now Jennifer I have to ask you, can you see the wisdom of God at this moment in your life when you were asked to give up that young man at 19?

Jennifer: Oh absolutely. I’m so grateful that I obeyed. You know at that time when you’re walking through it it seems like well “This seems like to be the best thing.” You know our ideas of what we think is best are so much smaller than what God’s best is for us. So I am so grateful that I was able to trust the Lord in that decision because Jonatan has been such a blessing to my life and we’re so happy. It’s so wonderful to know that you’re living in God’s best.

Sid: Okay, the reason I asked Jennifer back and her husband Jonatan, is they had literally a vision, a visitation, Jennifer had of a place in heaven called the Weeping Room. Why do I want you to hear this? Because one of the most important things for you to develop is God’s compassion for the lost; God’s compassion for the hurting; God’s compassion for things beyond yourself, your family, your house, your job, your ministry, and she had an experience that I believe as you hear about you will be pulled into supernatural compassion, God’s heart, God’s compassion. Jennifer tell me how this began.

Jennifer: What happened was a couple of years ago I was in a season of just seeking the Lord and just asking Him to give me His heart, and His perspective on things. While in this time I was just praying and seeking God and I begin to have an encounter. It was much like a vision actually, but what I saw is I just saw myself being taken up to heaven. I was in a spiritual place where I saw what looked like the Father’s house, I don’t know else how to explain it. I just saw all these rooms in the Father’s house, and the Lord began to just escort me room by room and just show me different things. Each room had such meaning and symbolism. I could see different believers that were drawn to different rooms in the Father’s house. I saw some people who just loved to be in the library in the study room, and they’re reading books, and they were just so happy in that place. I saw people who were getting drunk in the wine cellar…

Sid: That’s sort of like at Pentecost where it says they were accused of being drunk because they were so filled with the Holy Spirit and joy.

Jennifer: Exactly. So they were just you know drinking of the Holy Spirit and just losing themselves in that place. All over the house there was just different things that were happening all this activity, but the Lord invited me into the most precious room in the house. This was the intimacy chamber. When I went in I was taken away with just the beauty in that room and just the presence of the Lord. I felt like this is what I was made for, intimacy with God, intimate friendship with God. I just felt so secure in who I was, I felt secure in His love, it was just a beautiful place. As I was just admiring in this vision all the different details in this room and just basking in His love, I noticed something that caught my attention. There’s this beautiful big bed but next to the bed on the floor was a little tiny wooden trap door. Quite honestly when I saw it, I thought “That is very bizarre, that doesn’t fit in this beautiful room. What is it? Where does it lead to?” I just asked the Lord, what is that? Why a little wooden trap door in this great room? He said “Well down that door leads to a very very special place.” I said “My goodness where could this room possibly lead?” He told me “That’s the weeping room.” I thought “The weeping room? That sounds horrible that doesn’t sound at all like a place I’d like to go. Why would you connect a room to this place called ‘The Weeping Room’ to this precious room? He told me “You know that’s where I spend most of my time.” I was just shocked, and I didn’t understand it I didn’t have understanding of what this meant. I said “Lord if that’s where You spend Your time, that’s where I want to go, please take me there.” Before He would take me He said “You know you need to be sure because it’s not like the rest of the house. It’s not glorious, it’s not extravagant, it’s not fun, it’s lonely. It’s low, you have get low even to get in, it’s not comfortable. I just said “Jesus, I want to be where you are. I don’t care what it cost me.” He opened the little trap door He began to walk me down down down this long spiral staircase. We came to tiny little door, and actually I had to get on my knees to fit through the door. When we went in it was a very simple room all that was in there was a little wooden chair and a window. The Lord went and He sat on the chair and He looked out this window. As soon as He did that I had revelation as to why this was called “The Weeping Room.” In that window you could see and you could hear every single cry of injustice coming from the earth all at one time.

Sid: That’s got to be more than someone can bear.

Jennifer: Oh exactly! I couldn’t even take it all in, it was Jesus who was taking it all in. Watching Him take it all in just made fall to pieces in this vision, I mean I just began to weep, I mean in the natural I just cried and cried. He heard every prayer coming from the earth, every child being abused, every woman being raped, every hungry person, every single person crying out on the earth. Jesus saw it all, and He listened to every single thing. He was not silent, He was not turning His face, He watched with great compassion and great love. I was so undone by this King, so beautiful, so kind that He has everything God has everything. He would choose to spend time in this place, He chooses to hear the cries of the poor, the lost, the broken, and I just wept. Of course naturally I just began to weep and weep, for the first time in my life it was like in my head I always knew that God was a compassionate God. For the first time in my life I actually began to feel His compassion. I think we all have a measure of compassion, but I truly began to feel His compassion. Pretty soon it was like I just began to be consumed with the emotions of God. While I was in this place Sid, I saw another little door in this room. I thought “Where could this room possibly lead this is just unbelievable.” So I asked the Lord “What does that door lead to, where does this room go?” He said “That is the strategy room.” When He said that I understood that in that room, although I couldn’t see in there, thee was worldwide strategy for revival, there was strategy for feeding the hungry people in the world, for the cures for diseases like AIDS, there was strategy for peace between nations, I mean everything you could imagine was in that place. There’s a place in heaven with divine strategy and I knew it was the heart of God that His people get into that room.

Sid: Well before we even get to that let me ask you a question. What was going on with Jesus when He was hearing all these horrible things, all these injustices going on throughout the world?

Jennifer: The Lord just sat there and he wept, Jesus wept. He was moved with great compassion. I could just see His face like even though there was millions of voices coming at one time, and scenes being played out all at one time. It was like He saw each one with such intensity, with such compassion He was so aware…

Sid: You know this is consistent with scripture because in Isaiah 63:9 where God is talking about the Jewish people He says “In all their affliction He was afflicted.” I believe, I can speak for myself, and I think I can speak for most of you, we all need more of God’s compassion.

Sid: Now I have been a Jewish believer in the Messiah for over 30 years. I tell you what I witnessed last month in the land of Israel historically was the most significant thing I had seen in my entire walk with the Lord, in over 30 years. I saw biblical prophecy fulfilled.

Before I get to that I want to tell you how God has used me over the past 3 decades. It seems as though I find myself right in the forefront of brand new moves of God’s Spirit, and that’s what happened in Israel. I believe I was walking on such holy ground that I was at the spot where a great great move of God’s Spirit is happening.

Let me take you back when I was a brand new believer in the Messiah. I hadn’t even read the Bible; it was at the beginning of the Charismatic movement. There was an article in a major secular newspaper in Washington D.C.; the headline I can see it today it said “White collar Jesus freaks.” My whole testimony… you see you have to remember back then there was not that many Jewish believers in the Messiah, certainly not that many that were outspoken.  On the front page of a major newspaper in Washington D.C. they actually sold more editions of that newspaper than any in their entire history was my testimony.

A woman by the name of Katherine Kuhlman, who had one of the greatest miracle ministries of the century, read the article and booked me to do 2 national television shows.  So I sort of became a focal point of Jewish people that believe in Jesus over 30 years ago. That was again before I’d even read the entire New Testament. I knew nothing, but I knew the most important thing I knew that Jesus was real.

Then I remember being involved in a group called the Hebrew Christian Alliance. That later was called the Messianic Jewish Alliance and I was president of the local chapter. We started out having meetings of about 10 or 12 people, in a matter of months we started having meetings of hundreds of people. As a result of this we started one of the first Messianic Jewish Synagogues in modern day history. It was called “Beth Messiah” located in Rockville, Maryland.

Again I knew nothing except the most important thing I knew that Jesus rescued me from an impossible situation. I knew that Jesus was real and I wanted to tell everyone everywhere how grateful I was to Him. Every week Jewish people were coming to the Lord. Then we got organized and the more organized we got, we got a professional rabbi; the more organized we got the better we looked, the better we smelled, the better we tasted, but Israel stopped being saved. It was almost as if when you knew nothing and were entirely dependent on God He showed up. The more organized we got the less of God showed up.

Then a friend of mine by the name of Jonathan Bernis, who you probably know from the Jewish Voice Broadcast, I’ve known him for over 20 years. He said “Sid God is burdening me to go to the former Soviet Union and do big music concerts that will reach unsaved Jewish people.” At that time no one had ever done it and all of his friends that he checked with, especially the leaders in the movement discouraged him. He told me I was the only friend that was really, that was a leader in the movement that was pushing him to do this. So he said “Sid you’ve been in evangelism a lot longer than I have will you go with me on my first trip, and we’ll team up? You’ll evangelize one night, and I’ll evangelize the next night.” We didn’t know what to expect, but it was his event and he invited me to attend and be a guest evangelist. Since I had more experience than him he let me speak on the first night. We witnessed something with our eyes that we had never seen before. We witnessed hundreds if not thousands of Jewish people with tears in their eyes running to the altar to get saved. I mean I’d been in Jewish ministry for so long I never had seen anything like this. So God puts me strategically in places where there’s a major outpouring of God’s Spirit.

By the way, people are being healed right now. I see a spine if you will just bend you will bend right over into your healing. I also see a neck and problems in the back if you have neck ache you are healed in Jesus name. If you have a backache you are healed in Jesus name. There’s even muscles, I don’t quite understand this, but muscles and backs are being healed in Jesus name.

So I have found that God’s kind of thrust me in the forefront when He’s ready to pour His Spirit out. I went to Israel last month I went on Shavuot, otherwise known as Pentecost. Of course, the Jewish Shavuot is different in the date as the Christian Pentecost, but I went for the real thing. I decided, I shouldn’t say I decided, I felt that God told me… you see in Israel most of the believers are fearful to be evangelistic. You say “Oh how could they be that way?” Well it could cost you your job in Israel; it could cost you your apartment; it could cost your children being persecuted. You being persecuted?  So it’s easy for me to say “Why aren’t you so evangelistic in Israel?” I guess if I was living there it would not be so easy for me to say.

As a matter of fact, just as I went on the air I received an email from Israel in a section of Israel called Arad from a believer that asked for prayer. Let me read you a few excerpts from this. It says “There was a big demonstration of 3 – 400 religious Jews in front of our place this past Shabbat, this past Friday. We had 15 – 20 believers that gathered for a Friday night meal together. After the Shabbat came, in order to avoid the religious…” in other words they gathered during the Shabbat hoping the religious would not disrupt them. “…but we were threatened and they said ‘They will get us out of Arad even in a coffin.’” I mean how would you like to be having a Shabbat dinner and have someone threaten you like that? “My husband and another believer approached the 2 religious that were there, and these 2 men ran towards them and caught my husband by the hands. It became really physical. Then they came into our meeting, they turned tables over, threw books, coffee, and everything else on the floor. This guy went absolutely wild with his hatred and anger. There was nothing for the other believers to do except call for help. The demonstration that they had outside of our place like all other aggressive demonstrations against believers in Arad are authorized by the local police. They shouted at me the week before in a very loud and aggressive demonstration in front of our house that I’m a dirty Jew. That demonstration started at 7:30 pm, the kids were all in pajamas ready to go to bed. They started screaming and shouting in our blinds ‘Christians out!’” So it’s not so easy to be a believer and live in the land of Israel because the same spirit that was on a Jewish rabbi by the name of Saul of Tarsus who later became Paul the Apostle. Unfortunately, those demonic spirits are still alive and well in the land of Israel. That’s the bad news, wait till I tell you the good news.

When I went to Israel I feel like God gave me a strategy to get in under the radar. What was the strategy? I printed up handbills, or flyers, just small ones I have one in front of me right here in Hebrew and in Russian. The bills read “Sid Roth international author, television investigative reporter, expert on miracles will be in the Kryot,” that’s a suburb of Haifa, “to speak on the subject of miracles and teach you how to perform miracles. Many people are miraculously healed at these meetings. You could be next. Sponsored by It’s Supernatural Television.” Well you know when I got to these meetings I didn’t know if anyone would show up. We rented secular buildings and we were going to do exactly what we advertised and lecture on the supernatural. Wait till you hear what happened I’ll pick up right here on tomorrow’s broadcast.

Sid: I tell you I am so excited about the interview this week; I was, as a friend of mine likes to say, I was minding my own business at church and trying to worship God and a woman walks up to my wife and shoves a book in her hand and says “I think you should read this.”  And service was over and we got home and so my wife didn’t even look at the book.  I take a look at it and I start reading it and I didn’t want to put the book down because for the first time; I mean there are many people that are saying “This is the moment that God is having such mercy on planet Earth; this is the moment to draw close to God; this the moment to hunger for God.  This is the moment for intimacy; this is the moment to press into God. All of these words with most people it’s just words meaning okay somehow they’ve managed to have this breakthrough, but I don’t know what they’re saying; I don’t know how I can get that breakthrough for myself.  And this is the first book that I have seen that is actually a practical guide for a breakthrough not just for the superstars.  Because we’re in a new period in history in which thee Superstar will function and that is the Messiah; the one new man; the body of Messiah. That means that just as in the first church the least Christian walked in signs and miracles and heard God but we have in what is called 21^st  century American Christianity is not remotely close to what I read in the Bible.  But I found a tool for you and I have the author on the telephone; his name is Gary Oates from Dallas, Georgia. He was raised Southern Baptist; he was on the staff of Campus Crusade; got filled with the Spirit; has been an Independent Charismatic Church Pastor and now is traveling the nations.  And when I… I have to tell you Gary when I read your book my first thought was “Is this authentic?”  And then I looked at the back page of the book and I saw a bunch of my friends that tell me they were eye witnesses to what God’s been doing with you.  People like Randy Clark who’s probably seen more miracles per square inch than any human I know.  This is what he says about your book.  “This is one of the most exciting books I’ve read in a long time I can verify this story; I am a witness to what Gary has written and more.”  And then perhaps my favorite person to interview Heidi Baker; I mean this is a woman that feeds orphans supernaturally in Africa and moves in all of the gifts of the Spirit and just has such child-like faith.  She says “I couldn’t not put this amazing book down I laughed and cried as the Holy Spirit touched me through these anointed stories; if you want a deeper life in the Holy Spirit this book is for you.”  Now Gary you were a charismatic Christian coming from a very evangelical fundamental type of a background. You were doing what a charismatic Christian does; but there was one moment according to your book that required a step of obedience that opened up a brand new door of intimacy with God.  Tell me about that.

Gary:  Well, in June of 2002 we were ministering in Brazil and the church worship was incredible the presence of God was so strong in the room.  God spoke to me and He said “Take your shoes off your standing on Holy Ground.”  My first reaction was “Well, I don’t want to do that it was a dirty dusty concrete floor and I had on clean socks and so I resisted.”  And a couple moments later God spoke again and He said “Take your shoes off.”  And I realized that this God I better do this and reached down and I take my shoes off quickly and thanked God I did because I believe that what followed would not have happened had I not taken my shoes off.

Sid: Let me interject something I have talked to people that have had distinct impressions while sitting in a church here in a America where the floors are good enough to eat off of run around the church and the thought was “Oh, everyone will look at me; no one else is doing it I’m not going to do that.”  Could you put that almost in the same classification?

Gary:  Well, yes in a way because often times you know God is speaking to us; we’re wanting to go to the next level; we’re wanting to experience more of Him, but yet we’re not willing to do the simple thing that He asks of us. And when we respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit God can then entrust us with more when we’re faithful in the small things.

Sid: Okay, so you got your feet dirty; you respected God by honoring His word; what happened?

Gary: Well, I continued worshiping the Lord and I opened my eyes and I looked up on the platform as there was some dancers up there during the worship time and God opened my eyes to see angels; three angels dancing around two of the dancers.

Sid: Now were these like bright lights or were they really visible beings?

Gary: Well, I saw them as transparent; I saw them they were dressed in white; they were white flowing robes. And I didn’t see them just like I would see a person but I could see through them and they were dancing around these other dancers.  Individual dancers over the side each one of them had a large angel that was arched over them and everywhere the dancer went the angel would move with them and I was amazed at what I was seeing.  

Sid: Had you ever seen anything like this before?

Gary: No nothing like this.

Sid: But had you not taken, and this was so important Mishpochah, had Gary not taken that step and I guess the operative word Gary is obedience.

Gary:  Yes.

Sid: Had he not been obedient to the little inconsequential I mean it sounds inconsequential to me Gary.

Gary:  Yes. 

Sid:  Taking my shoes off in a dirty room; I don’t want to do but it’s so what what difference does it make?  But for some reason it was you little step to cause God to I guess this might be called the gift of discernment where you could see in the invisible realm.

Gary: Yes, well my prayer had been before I went to Brazil to minister that God would open my eyes; that I would begin to see things from His  perspective not just my own and that He would open my eyes to see the ministry of angels.

Sid: Well, what were these… why were these angels dancing with the human dancers that were worshiping God; what was going on in your opinion?

Gary:  Well, I believe that the dancers were cooperating with what’s happening in Heaven and the angels manifested themselves around the dancers because we were worshiping God.  It was moment of worship and of course the angels are worshipers of God and so I saw both what was happening in Heaven, the angels dancing before the Lord but also in the natural on the earth of the dancers dancing before the Lord.

Sid: What happened next?

Gary: Well, I looked up and above the platform was full of worshiping angels; they were playing instruments, dancing, they were singing it was the most beautiful sight I had ever seen.  And I began to thank God for all that He was doing; I raised my hands to the Lord tears were just beginning to come down my cheeks.  And I said “God I just want more of You; I want more of You!”  And right then I felt myself getting bigger and taller and it was like I grew to 15 feet tall and I was looking down over everyone else worshiping.  And I was awed by what was happening and then I started going up; now actually my spirit was leaving my body. My body was on the floor but my spirit was leaving my body and went up into the top of the tent.  Now this church met in a large tent that seated 3,000 people. From that perspective I was looking down over the people worshiping God.  And to be honest with you it was like fear began to grip me and I started resisting what God was doing.

Sid: I’ve heard other men of God say that and others listing to you say “Why would he do that?” but put yourself in such a unique situation and find out it’s not so simple is it Gary?”

Gary:  No, especially when you’ve never been there before; I’d never experienced that it’s a whole new realm of the spirit.  And so because of that I was resisting I starting coming back down and I thought no I messed up. And I began to cry out “God forgive me for up is better, up is better.”

Sid: (Laughing)

Gary:   And right when I said that I started going back up again and this time really fast and just like Superman went right through the top of tent way up into the sky.  And I was looking down over the city; I could see the top of tent it was glowing with the glory of God.  And God gave me zoom vision; but it was like a hole opened up in the top of the tent; I could see right down into the tent with people worshiping God.  And I want to tell you the sensation that I felt is very difficult to describe because I was not limited to a physical body; it was like nothing was impossible.  There were no limitations on me; again fear gripped me but it was a fear of the unknown; it was a fear of the supernatural because I’m the kind of guy that likes to have everything in a box.  You know I like to have all my ducks in a row and I was way out of my box I was way out of my comfort zone; and again I started resisting what God was wanting to do.  I started coming back down; I realized right then that I was the problem; I was the one that put the ceiling on how far I went with God. I honestly believe that God would have taken me all the way to the throne room had I not resisted.

Sid: Hmm.

Gary:  And as I started back down I was just again I was just crying out to God; oh God forgive me forgive me I know I know I messed up again.  And I came all the way back down just inside the tent.  And I raised my hands to the Lord; it was my spiritual arms; it was like they went a mile up into the sky and I was looking up.  And as I was looking up I saw Jesus coming down; he was wearing a robe; the presence… 

Sid: Was He transparent like the angels?

Gary:  No I didn’t see Him as transparent I saw Him as just as I would see a person; just as I would look at you.  And He had His hands extended outward toward me; and He came all the way down and He took my hands and He held my hands real tight as if to say I’m not going to let you go.  And I was overcome.

Sid: Oh were out of time we’ll pick up right here on tomorrow’s broadcast Mishpochah but I’m going to have Gary pray sometime this week a prayer of impartation that you would move in this realm.

Sid: The truth of the matter is although we are all equal in the Messiah we don’t all start on a level track. Many of us have been so tampered with even generationally that it takes us a long time to be able to be so free we can do exactly what the bible says. And I have two women that are responsible for a course it’s called Sozo.  It’s located in Redding, California and it’s part of the Bethel Church Ministry.  Dawna DeSilva and Teresa Liebscher and their hearts desire is for believers to be free.  And both of them know what it is to be in bondage; many people haven’t been in the bondage that perhaps Teresa was in.  Teresa just briefly tell me your background.

Teresa:  I had the childhood that was from the time of being very young up until the early 20’s of having inappropriate things done by all kinds of people and I blocked it out until I was around 40. And then…

Sid: You know that amazes me; we were talking before we went on the air Teresa of how the mind protects us.

Teresa:  Yes, the mind does very interesting things to protect who we are as people and help us also to survive and function.  And it’s a… yeah it’s very interesting how the body, soul and mind work.  And the next 10 years was a wonderful healing process and watching the Lord do interesting things; that was fun too; hard but fun.

Sid: And how did you hooked up with Dawna in this Sozo Ministry?

Teresa:  Well Dawna and one of her friends in ’97 started doing Sozo using the tools that we teach in ministering to people and they saw wonderful freedom.  And leadership saw what was going on and invited them to start a ministry and I was invited to sit in on a couple of sessions with Dawna when she was ministering to a teenager.  And I just got hooked and they asked me to come and be a part of it and I started doing sessions.  And I invited to help teach and schedule people and it just kept growing and growing and growing.

Sid: Teresa I hear a passion in your voice and I’m right I mean you have a passion, explain what that passion is.

Teresa: Well, I have a passion for Sozo because Sozo is such a wonderful ministry for helping people not only get tools to get them free, but these tools can be used to help other people get free in no matter what circumstance there in or what the calling or anointing they have.  And I do get passionate and just love explaining this and helping people and teach this so that people can have an opportunity to not only get free but to help other people get free.  

Sid:  Now Dawna I’m going to ask you a few questions.  You also have a passion and your passion is to see people fulfill their destiny even know what their destiny is.  And many people are in such a prison even after becoming believers in the Messiah that they don’t catch their destiny or they’re not whole enough to walk in that destiny.  Tell me one person that got free to walk in their destiny.

Dawna:  We had a gentleman in Mexico we were ministering in an orphanage and he sat down with us and he said “You know I’m afraid of these children, I’m afraid of what I may do to these children.”  And he said “When he was 18 years old and he said about four or five years prior a gentleman came in and prayed this spirit of perversion off of him and he felt it leave, but he was still afraid that he might harm the children.  When I go to touch the children I hear “What do you want from them; what are you going to do?”  And as we went into his background we found out that he had been molested as a child and he began to molest the children in the neighborhood.  And so he came in with this real sense of shame as a Christian and we took him back to a memory is one of the tools of when he began to molest children.  And we said “Jesus, where are You what’s the lie?” that he believes and he heard that “I’m evil.”  And we said “Jesus, what’s the truth.”  And then he said “But I am.”  And he starts arguing, and arguing and I said “No, no, no what did Jesus say? That I’m not evil.”  And he just started sobbing and he had a real pastor’s anointing and a pastor’s gift and the enemy wanted to make sure that this guy would not bend his arms and bring in the children and he’s free.

Sid: Now one of the things that you point out in your course is that the area that the devil has wounded in us the most is the area that is part of our destiny and it’s sort of like he tries to nip it in the bud so we can’t even move into our destiny.

Dawna:  Amen, exactly right.  We find a lot of times if you look at the attack against a person 90% of the time you can find their gifting, yeah.

Sid: Now I find your background is kind of interesting, your husband gets a nice job working in finances at a nice church called Bethel Church but they’re a little loud for you. And then a new pastor comes in Bill Johnson and he’s just bringing the Holy Spirit in and for years you’re in this church you’re a real quiet type of person and personality this isn’t you at all.  But and everyone is flopping all over the floor and having encounters with the Holy Spirit and feeling all of these wonderful feelings and what’s going on with you Dawna?

Dawna: I was probably… there was two of us another pastor and I that were on the lines we had prayer lines at the time and they would come through and pray and everyone would fall, pray fall, pray fall.  And this pastor and I would be the two left standing on this whole line and we look around we’d wink at each other like “Okay here we are but I so desperately wanted to fall under the power of God.”

Sid: Well, what’s changed that?

Dawna: Well, first of all I had to choose to let go of a religious spirit which was very much a part of who I was.  I had to realize that this was real; that when people fell they got up changed; and I watched their lives.  I sat there and watched them and then I had to start thanking the Lord for their freedom even though I wasn’t changing.  That was the big breakthrough for me. 

Sid: You know that reminds me of a Jewish man that I interviewed from Israel; he wasn’t a believer, he watched the 700 Club secretly he was paralyzed from the waist down. And one day one of the hosts of the 700 Club had a word of knowledge someone paralyzed from the waist down is being healed.  He realized it wasn’t him because there wasn’t nothing going on so he started praying for the person that was being healed.  The next morning he wakes up and he’s totally healed.

Dawna: Thank You Jesus, Amen that is awesome.  If we get our minds off of us and onto God and begin to thank Him for what He’s done it breaks all of the fears, it breaks all of the religious spirit and it just begins the process of healing.

Sid: You know I’ve been going through your teaching on Sozo we have 4 CD’s that you used to teach people that want to receive it for themselves, and also be able to minister to other people.  It’s really so simple, it’s really not complex when you think of deliverance you think of people vomiting and getting you know and speaking with funny voices and you know all of these things which I’ve seen and you have seen. But that’s not the way you handle it is it?

Dawna: No, we want to make sure that we are honoring to the person in the room with us and we are not looking for your sin; we are not looking for the demonic in you we’re looking for the wounds and the lies that allow the demonic to stay.  And when we go into those places like with this young man from Mexico and we break the lie the demonic cannot stay and he cannot rule us anymore. Very gentle, very kind.

Sid: It’s almost like once this hold is broken he can’t even stay.

Dawna: They cannot; we call that closing the doors.

Sid: Going back to your background so you… once you started thanking God for what He was doing for other people even though He wasn’t doing it for you you got touched by the Holy Spirit.  Was there a specific moment?

Dawna: There was a specific moment when one of the pastors actually the pastor who helped in Teresa’s healing Allen Rae, said “Dawna get up and give a testimony.”   And I have no testimony I have been standing on this line for 2 years and I was just like “Oh no” and he shoves me up front and these ladies are testifying about God and how good he is and their falling and laughing.  And he hands me the mic and I’m like “Well, I’m probably like the older brother who has always felt abandoned, like I’m here and don’t you care Lord and look at all of this weird stuff going on” and I said but I want that and I pointed to the girl that was just laughing hysterically on the floor and I felt a change, it was the first feeling of the Holy Spirit.  

Sid: Why do you suppose you were that way; there are a lot of people like you that they never slain in the Spirit, everyone else is feeling things and they don’t feel anything. What is the reason for that?

Dawna: Well one of the issues that I had growing up was some real mommy wounds and we will probably talk about that later but how the mommy wounds affect my view of the Holy Spirit.  And I started out with the Lord and I said “I’m going to start praising the Godhead a certain way and I said Father God I thank You that You’re the creator of the Heavens and the Earth and I thank You Jesus that You died for my sins and I thank You Holy Spirit for whatever it is You do.”  So I had no grid for the Holy Spirit. 

Sid: You know Mishpochah I find this is so sensible their teaching and really so simple. They have certain key questions that you ask yourself and certain key areas and they actually taught their course and most of you can’t go out to Reading, California….

Sid: Now my guest Carlos Sarmiento… Carlos the experience that you had you’re not Jewish I happen to be Jewish. We’re both believers in the Messiah, you’re just doing what you’re supposed to do because the Bibles says that the Gentle believer in Jesus is to provoke the Jew to jealousy. I’m telling you did it with what happened to you.  I’m going to take you back to that date May 8^th, 2005.  You’re asleep it’s 4:00 AM in the morning and all of a sudden you catch your spirit slipping out of your body because you see your wife.  You know laying there right in the bed and an angel was holding you up and you start rising up through the clouds. And you begin to be really taken by the colors especially since in the natural you’re colorblind but all of your senses are being magnified. And then you more to another scene and you see Jesus talking to His Father God.  And what are they discussing?

Carlos:  They’re talking about the current condition of the Body of Christ and the Church.  And the primary thing that I received out of that encounter as they were talking, and you know I heard a voice that said to me “You’ve been granted to stand here and listen.” And so I felt this peace that I could listen to this conversation. So I remember they didn’t pay attention to me it was almost as if I wasn’t there but I was like a 3^rd party in this conversation.  And so I stood there, I was maybe 10 feet away from them as I stood there and listened I began to really intently focus on their words. And they were talking about the condition of the earth, but they were also talking about where the church would be going, where the church was today, and the plans of God through the ministry of the Holy Spirit for the last great movement and the greatest harvest of souls.  One of the things that I clearly remember them talking about was how the greatest signs, wonders and miracles were still yet to come that were part of the last day generation, the last great move of the Spirit of God as the climax to the last great outpouring of the Holy Spirit because we’re still in that great outpouring season.

Sid: Now most prophets, or people that are prophetic, miss timing.  But as I hear you share this it sounds to me like we have a little bit of time to prepare before this great explosion of the Holy Spirit or do you think it’s already happened?

Carlos:  I believe that the way that the Holy Spirit operates is that He operates through preparation, He always has his several messengers that begin to prepare the church for what He wants to come.  I call them forerunners.  And I believe that we’re at a stage, the Holy Spirit is always moving, He’s operating.  I believe that we’re living in a day and an hour where the Holy Spirit is really beginning to take it up a notch.  And what I believe by that is that He really is preparing His forerunner messengers for the sole purpose of preparing the Church to become the Bride of Christ.  Which is the ultimate identification and the ultimate relational experience that the Body of Christ could encounter with Jesus.  Which is of course the intimacy between the bridegroom and the bride.  Which is the Church, Christ and the Church. I believe that the Holy Spirit is definitely in operation and He’s moving and I believe that we’re at the very beginning stage of preparation. Because preparation to me really involves learning to live in the urgent hour that we’re living in.  Not just living in yesterday’s revelation, yesterday’s manna, but I believe the Spirit of God is trying to awaken the church primarily to turn back to her first love and fulfill the great commandment.  I think that we as a Church over all we try to fulfill the second commandment, loving our neighbor, reaching souls, evangelism without fulfilling the great commandment first.  I believe the Holy Spirit is working overtime through messengers, encountering people, encountering men of God, women of God.  Those in ministry, those that are not in ministry, marketplace people to become lovesick forerunners so that they can become like trumpeters, prophetic voices to awaken the Church to say Jesus is coming, we must return back to the first great commandment. Walk in it and as we do so we will see the greatest manifestation of the power of God, the miraculous and massive souls coming in. Because Holy Spirit will be able to trust those servants who will not rape the church nor take advantage of the Body of Christ nor take the glory for themselves but they will give the glory to Christ.

Sid: Can you give me a sanctified speculation of what these great miracles might look like that are about around the corner?

Carlos:  I would say that there is nothing new under the sun; so what I would say is the miracles that are taking place worldwide will take place in that day now. But what I sense and what I saw was a massive explosion where it would be enlarge masses.  Almost you know like the Book of Acts,

Sid: Wait, wait, wait Kathryn Kuhlman prophesied that a day would come when a true believer would walk into a hospital and everyone in the hospital would be instantly healed.  Is that the type of magnitude that you’re talking about?

Carlos:  Yes, and the way that I received it and I’ve been sensing it is that it’s not just those that are called to full time.  It’s the average believer that would walk in fullness, the Stevens, the Philips. They were not the apostles, they were not part of the upper tier leadership but they were man and woman of God who loved the Lord and gave Him glory and they walked in great anointing and great authority because of their connection with the Lord. I believe that’s what the Holy Spirit intends to do and He’s going to do. He’s always going to have His forerunners, He’s always going to have His men and women in place the Kathryn Kuhlman’s, the Benny Hinn’s the Kenneth Hagin’s the great men of the day.  He always will have them as provokers as sparkers, as forerunner. But the true mark of the forerunner is to invite the general body, not just the upper tier of leadership. I really believe the Holy Spirit is preparing the Body for a massive sweep of God’s power that will involve whosoever thirsts let him come.  I believe that the Holy Spirit wants to do.

Sid: Now I have to ask you what were the most terrifying words you heard in heaven?

Carlos:  Well in that encounter at one point in the conversation between the Father and the Son, the Father looked at Jesus and this was near the end of that conversation; near the end of the encounter.  When the Father said to Jesus “It’s time Son go get your bride!”  And Sid the only way that I could explain how I felt at that time was the terror, the terror.  It was like the terror I didn’t understand what the terror or the fear of the Lord was.  But at that moment I felt the terror and fear of the Lord.  It was like those words that He spoke I could almost see them in my spirit that those words were created, they formed like a ball of fire in that word rolled towards me.  And I knew that this ball of fire was going to hit my inner-man.  And I remember when that word came and hit my midsection and I could tell that my body began to shake violently and I knew that I was about to say something that I didn’t want to say.  And what came out of my lips; what came out of my mouth were these words that said and I screamed it at the top of my lungs, “No… we are not ready!”

Sid: Why did you say that?

Carlos:  You know I was shocked by what I said; I was really disturbed by what I said; as a matter of fact when I came out of my encounter.  I said “My God, my God what was that?”  And I remember I was so disturbed by those words that I was shaking and crying out loud I realized that it was 4:00 AM in the morning and I threw myself on the floor and four 2 hours Sid all I could tell you was that those words “No, we’re not ready!  No, we’re not ready!” They kept coming back to me and I didn’t understand why I said that.  I said “Lord, am I not ready?  Is my life not ready?  Am I not ready to meet you?  Is my family not ready, is my ministry not ready?  Why would I say that, and for 2 hours I cried out, show me, speak to me?  So finally at the end of those two hours of standing, sitting before, laying before the Lord I heard the gentle voice of the Holy Spirit that said “Son, if I took you home right now you are ready to meet Me for eternity, but in the condition your heart is in right now you are not ready for the next great move of the Holy Spirit that I’m about to visit the earth with.”  And that’s what put me in a seeking mode where I said “Lord, I don’t know how to get ready, teach me; show me how to get ready.” And that’s what brought me to the place where we are today.

Sid: Tell me just a few things that the Holy Spirit showed you to do personally to get ready.

Carlos: The first thing He showed me was through a series of events and through me seeking the Lord about that. He said “Carlos number 1 you must return to your first love.”  And he reminded me of the Church of Ephesus in the Book of Revelation; how the Church of Ephesus had great works.  Sid, I could tell you when I was encountered by the Lord our church was exploding, we had; we were prosperous financial church, we were seeing souls left and right coming into the kingdom, people getting healed miraculously, we had a thriving, lively church full of excitement. But then the Lord began to show me through this encounter, and as I was seeking the Lord Carlos, “You’ve grown comfortable.  Yes you love Me, yes you seek Me but son your heart does not burn for Me the way it used to and I’m looking for servants that will keep the first commandment the first thing, who will major in the major and not minor at it. They’re going to seek Me with all of their heart, mind, soul and strength.”

Sid: Carlos, we’re out of time right now; we’ll pick up on the instructions.  Because the instructions that Carlos got they’re the instructions for you.  I know you want to sell out to the Lord, but there are things that are stopping you.  But I do not want you to say “I’m not ready” when the greatest move to ever hit planet earth is right around the corner and God’s having you listen to this interview right now to be prepared.

Sid: My guest by way of telephone is a Jewish believer in the Messiah his name is Louis Sheldon. You’re probably familiar with him because he’s the chairman of Traditional Values Coalition. He has a new book that is a must read for anyone that considers themselves a real Christian. The name of the book is called “The Agenda” subtitled “The Homosexual Plan to Change America.” I tell you Mishpochah according to what I see, according to what I read, according to what I’ve seen in this book the agenda we are dangerously close to becoming Sodom and Gomorrah. I have heard for years, Louis Sheldon, that just the last thing that happens before a great society crumbles is its morality crumbles. Is that true?

Louis: Oh that’s very true. There was a scientific study done by a non-Christian whose name was J. D. Unwin he wrote a book called “Sex and Culture.” In his book he reports he went around the world for 3 years. He was a full professor of anthropology at the University of Oxford in Oxford, England. He studied all of the cultures in what we refer to as little city states that rose flourished for a while, and then diminished and faded. The final thing that finished them off was when they went into homosexuality.

Sid: You know what these cultures did not have the mass media that we have today. They didn’t have movies, they didn’t have television they didn’t have internet, and I have to tell you it’s getting dangerous for me to channel surf because I can’t believe what I’m seeing. Now that there’s going to be an entire network devoted to homosexuality… what about the internet, is there much on the internet that can hurt our children?

Louis: Oh there’s plenty on the internet! As a Christian lobbyist in Washington D.C. we passed the V-chip bill which would have prevented any young person from getting on the internet pornography, or obscenity, or having received it in an email. Well do you know the Supreme Court of the United States overturned the V-chip bill and said “That we were denying access of liberty, of education, and all of those other cliché words they use to young children.” So now young children can go into a public library, sit down on the internet and bring up pornography and obscenity.

Sid: You know speaking of the Supreme Court many feel there will be 2 new justices, and perhaps 3 new justices in the Bush administration. How important is for someone with good moral fiber to be a justice?

Louis: Well it’s very important for someone who’s going to serve on the Supreme Court to have a clear understanding and to have moral judgment, and to know the difference, the long-term difference, between good and evil, between right and wrong, between what is morally right, and what is morally wrong. Very clearly our founding fathers did not want the Constitution to be treated as a springboard. For instance, just recently the Supreme Court said in the Kelo case of New London, Connecticut where is there was an x number of amount of homes that they wanted to demolish to build a larger manufacturing building for pharmaceutical people “We will take your land.” The way they justified it through eminent domain was the Supreme Court said “Well the Constitution says only your land can be taken from you if it’s for public use.” That means a freeway, a highway, a fire station something that the whole public benefits from, and they changed that word “public use” to “public benefit” meaning economic development.

Sid: So in other words they can take your homes because they want to build an apartment building?

Louis: That is correct!

Sid: That’s pretty scary.

Louis: Yes. That’s why it’s so important for a justice, to go back to your question, a justice understands what is morally right. This dear lady that lived in her home her name was Kelo and that’s why she brought the lawsuit, but she lost it at the Supreme Court. So we must have a Supreme Court person that totally is not an activist and has a political agenda.

Sid: Okay, here’s where the rubber meets the road for me and for anyone that’s listening to us. Not what you say, not what I say, but what does God say in His written words, the Bible, about homosexuality?

Louis: Well it’s very clear starting with the book of even Genesis Chapter 1 where it says “We were made in His image” and His image goes on to say “He created us male and female,” then later it says in the creation story that “He saw that man was alone and He wanted to give man a helper of his equal female.” So you have the full creation story. When you come against that, and that’s why in Leviticus it says “If a man lays with a man in a sexual relationship as he would with his we in marriage then he has created an abomination.” An abomination is the equivalent of like quenching the Holy Spirit what is in the New Testament like that. Then when you move to the book of Romans Paul gives us practically a chapter and part of another chapter, part of chapter 1 and most of chapter 2. Talking about why homosexuality is not right and you cannot inherit the kingdom of God if you are that. Then we go to Corinthians where Paul does it again for the Corinthians and he puts a list of sins that you cannot have if you want to enter the kingdom of God. It doesn’t mean that you can’t repent and you can’t turn your back on your sin, it means simply that if you stay in that sin of homosexuality, it’s listed there in 1 Corinthians 6:9 it is very clear. Then you go on even to the book of Jude where it talks about Sodom and Gomorrah and what happened there. So it’s pretty clear throughout the bible. The word licentiousness that is mentioned many times in the gospel accounts, I think the Lord Jesus very clearly, that was a general term for sexual immorality.

Sid: So help me out. How do these major denominations condone homosexuality, Christian denominations, how does someone that says “I’m a Christian I believe in God read these things in the Bible and justify it?”

Louis: Well those denominations, like the most recent one the United Church of Christ, they totally longtime ago disbanded their belief that the Bible was thee word of God, it was without error.

Sid: That’s the only way you could say you’re a Christian and be a practicing homosexual. The two cannot, according to the Bible, go together.

Louis: That is correct. So you see they have disbanded their belief that the Bible is the constitution for the Christian and for his salvation, and for his edification and sanctification. They’ve left the Bible and see that’s why any denomination that walks away from the Bible will walk away from what is good and accept what is evil. That’s why in the Methodist Church there’s a split, in the Presbyterian Church now there’s a major split because it seems like almost every national meeting that comes up with the Presbyterians and their general assembly they continue the liberals, who don’t believe in the Bible as the word of God, bring up “Let’s have homosexuality made acceptable.” The people turn it down who are there at the National Assembly meeting, but they bring it up again. So these churches are doing I think basically because they have no other place to go. Instead of digging into the word of God and believing it and obeying it, they’ve just boo-hooed it.

Sid: Now you talk in your book about the Kinsey Studies that lots of people giggle about and laugh, but how scientific were the Kinsey Studies?

Louis: Oh they were not scientific at all you couldn’t even begin to say they had much science. Kinsey did not use the scientific method of sampling, and it was around because the Gallop Poll organization and philosophy was well operative by 1940, it was developed in the late 30’s. So when Kinsey came along and did his and published his book in 47 and 48, he had been doing this all during the 40’s. So what he did was he went to 3 sources to see about homosexuality, and he’s the one that gave us the erroneous 10% figure of the population. He went to prisons, of course there’s far more…

Sid: What was Kinsey’s morality like out of curiosity? Did he have an agenda to prove something?

Louis: Well we know that Kinsey… people who have worked with him, several people who have worked with him and not in recent years but maybe 20 something years ago said “That he was bisexual and that he was in total rebellion to his Christian and church background.”

Sid: I can’t believe in your book you state that his sampling techniques were of the following groups:

• Sex offenders
• Pedophiles
• Homosexuals
• Prostitutes

This isn’t a sampling of America.

Louis: Also there’s one other thing we didn’t mention there he went to gay bars also.

Sid: So we thought as a nation this is what sexuality is and those are the people he used to sample?

Louis: Oh yes I remember…

Sid: I’ll tell you what we’re out of time.