Our Guest Gary Carpenter
Sid: I have a guest this week that is going get to your thinking straightened out because there is so much confusion in what is called “Word of Faith Teaching.” Let me tell you a little bit about myself. You know when Jewish people, and that’s my background I’m Jewish. When Jewish people come to the Lord if you will we’re at the mercy of the people that lead us to the Lord. If someone happens to be Catholic that leads us to the Lord we end up being Catholic. If they happen to be charismatic we end up being charismatic. If they happen to be fundamental we end up being fundamental. Well many of the people that came into my path when I became a new believer were into Word of Faith Teaching. I jumped in hook, line, and sinker, but I have a very pragmatic side and I found for me that it wasn’t working. It was working for others because I heard them say it, but for me it wasn’t working. I kind of distanced myself from it, then I had an unfortunate thing happen. A friend of mine that was very strong in the Word of Faith Teaching, strongest person I know in that arena, died of a serious illness. I was there when he died and the day before he said “I am going to live and not die and declare the works of the Lord.” He was doing everything right, he was dotting every “i”, he was crossing every “t” and that put me in a bit of a tailspin. But here’s where I’m at now, and I’ve been a believer almost 30 years in the Lord and I believe that God is a faith God. I believe that God’s promises in the Bible are from Him and are true. I believe that there is as much healing in the atonement as there is forgiveness of sin. The best thing we have is meditating on God’s word in reference to physical healing, and standing on the promises despite what is going on with the circumstances of our life and get as close to God as possible. I believe through faith and patience we will inherit the promises, but then when the teaching on prosperity came it really through me for a loop because I saw so much lust, and so much greed, and so much the opposite of what I read about in the word of God especially the words of Jesus it really turned me off. So when I found out about Gary Carpenter whose ministry is in Tulsa, Oklahoma it got me so excited. Gary tell me what happened with you in reference to Word of Faith Teaching and in particular prosperity.
Gary: Well I was pretty much like you the person that led me to the Lord brought me right into the Word of Faith movement. I listened to all of the tapes, I went to all of the camp meetings by the prominent teachers we got saved my wife and I and Spirit filled in 1980. We was living Tulsa there’s a lot of conventions here and so we would go to all of them. I was probably taught pretty much the same principles and teachings that you were. The thing of it is the men I still have a lot of respect for, and I’m not sure what they were teaching is exactly the way I heard it. The way I heard it this gospel was all about me (laughing). In other words, the focus was on me, my house, my cars, my prosperity, whether they meant it that way or not that’s the way I heard it. Everything that was taught every principle such as the 100 fold return and we could just go down the list. I’ll say it this way, I’ve been down every one of those rabbit trails. It may or may not have been working for them, you know they say it was and perhaps it was, I never could make it work for me. We floundered pretty much that was what we were, you know what we cut our teeth on when we became Christians. But I got pretty disillusioned pretty much like you say. It didn’t really change for me until 1992 and that’s the year that Sue and I began attending Pastor Dave Roberson’s church here in Tulsa called the Family Prayer Center. It’s amazing the timing of the Lord Dave was teaching a series just as we began there. In that series he was saying “You know there’s really nothing wrong with faith, without faith it’s impossible to please Him.” Hebrews 11:6 I believe says that “Without faith it’s impossible to please Him. He that comes to God must be that He is and that He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him.”
Sid: You know what I like to do Gary is a… what I consider a better definition than the word “Faith” is I usually insert the word “Trust.”
Gary: Yes.
Sid: And when you insert the word “trust” instead of the word “faith,” I mean you have to be stupid to not believe that without trust you can’t please God.
Gary: Well that’s for sure you know. My children if I found out they didn’t trust me, if they didn’t trust my words to them that would hurt me tremendously it certainly wouldn’t please me. It pleases me when they trust daddy, and it pleases our Father when we trust Him.
Sid: So you were exposed to this teaching and what difference did it make?
Gary: Well Dave he said “There’s nothing wrong with the faith movement but now here’s the problem what is decreed by the faith man. ‘Well I’m not moved by what I see, I’m not moved by what I feel, I’m only moved by the word of God.’” Well that’s true but without the leadership of the Holy Spirit you may start down a certain path but it’s not really His direction for your life. So God starts sending all kind of warning signals and flags going “Wrong path wrong way” but you’re a faith man you’re not moved by any of that and so you just keep going. Dave says “Faith is good, God is trustworthy but we are to be led by His Spirit not by our own desire.” Then he began to teach us how we could become more in attune to voice and the leadership of the Holy Spirit, His guiding. As anyone who knows Pastor Dave Roberson very well knows he teaches very… expounds a lot on praying in the spirit, praying in other tongues. What Pastor Dave calls the mortification, edification process.
Sid: But you knew this you had been charismatic for a while, speaking in tongues for a while before you wondered into his church. What’s the difference?
Gary: Oh the difference is tremendous. I think I was like most charismatics in those days you get up in the morning you quote 2 or 3 scriptures, you spend maybe 10 or 15 minutes praying in other tongues and you’ve pretty well had your fellowship time, at least that was most of the ones that I knew. What Dave is talking about a combination of 2 things, he really taught us how to meditate, really, on the word of God leaving every scripture in context, never lifting a verse out of its setting, and he also told us and taught us to spend hours praying in other tongues giving the Holy Spirit time to communicate those mysteries like it says in 1st Corinthians 14:2 “He that speaks to God, he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men but unto God. How be it in the spirit he speaketh mysteries…” but we’re not speaking mysteries to God that He doesn’t understand. The Holy Spirit is communicating with us mysteries that we don’t understand, and a big part of that is our very calling, what is God wants us to do in the body of Christ what it is we are to accomplish for the kingdom while we are on earth. After hearing Dave’s message… now here’s something I say all the time, when I first started hearing Dave a common thing that I said “I have been burned by so many well-meaning preachers in the past. Pastor Dave I love you, I appreciate you but no matter what you say it’s not scripture until I find it (laughing).” So everything he would teach I would take every verse I would go to the Bible, I would check it out. I did that process for about 6 months. We began in June of 1992 and it was December of 1992 before I finally concluded after checking every scripture, checking it in context, I could find nothing wrong with the messages it sure sounded right. So I made a commitment, at the time I was driving long-haul trucks across the country. I said “Lord I’m stuck in the cab of this truck anyway I’m just going to turn of the CB, I’m going to turn off the radio. If I’m in the cab of this truck I’m just going to make it my prayer closet and I will be praying.”
Sid: Now what is the difference you understood praying in tongues before why all of a sudden you were motivated?
Gary: After listening to Pastor Dave I never understood that those long periods of time spent praying in other tongues, that praying in other tongues is a revelation gift. That is one method, a very effective method where the Holy Spirit Himself you know like a teacher in college. Every hour you give Him it’s like a teacher standing at the blackboard communicating and teaching your reborn human spirit everything that Christ is in you, to you, and through you. As I began that process things that I had heard I had heard other men teach these same faith principles and things out of the Bible but the way I say it now “You know it’s hard to live on another man’s faith.” I knew the principles in my head but the problem was I couldn’t make them work for me.
Sid: I’ll get a little sarcastic right now Lord forgive me, it’s easy to leave to live on another man’s faith if you’re teaching it and giving up an offering.
Gary: (Laughing)
Sid: However, where the rubber meets the road it doesn’t work.
Gary: That was the problem, in fact it’s amazing you say that because in the 80’s, again the late 80’s before I started at Pastor Dave’s…
Sid: Hmm. Hm.
Gary: …I had learned all of those faith principles. I’m a good student, I had studied and learned. I did teach those principles (laughing) I taught them just as well as the men that I learned them from. People would ask me questions I didn’t have to go back and check any notes I knew there message. I knew it in my head but I could not make it work for me, and the big problem there is I really didn’t know the Lord very well. I knew the message but I didn’t know the Lord not in an intimate way, not in a day by day relationship way…
Sid: Out of curiosity with the hours, and you were a truck driver, so you could devote long periods of time praying in unknown tongues. Did your intimacy with God increase as a result of that?
Gary: Oh! My whole world is different, everything about our life is different. All of my… how do I say this, I have no agendas of Gary Carpenter anymore. All of those kind of aspirations during that process died. The more time you spend communicating and fellowshipping with the Holy Spirit that the more intimate relationship He develops between you and the Lord.
Sid: Woops we’re out of time!
Tags: It's Supernatural, Sid Roth