Sid:  Now one thing is for sure, everyone unless the Messiah returns quickly, everyone is going to most likely exit their earth suit and goes to Heaven or Hell when they die.  And if we can get some insight into Heaven from a Biblical perspective and experimental perspective that lines up with the Bible there’s a lot of things that will make more sense on this earth.  And my guest, Dean Braxton on May 4^th 2006 went into the hospital and he actually had prolonged cardiac arrest for an hour and forty-five minutes.  He had what the medical term is prolonged cardiac arrest and what is the first thing Dean Braxton that you remember happened to you while this seven days of you literally being out and not knowing what was going on while your wife was interceding and friends for you to live, what ‘s your first memory?

Dean:  Oh, the first memory I had you know is telling somebody right after they took the breathing tube out of my mouth that I’d seen Jesus three times and He told me to go back each one of those times.  As I was telling them, you know that was you know the conversation with this person was so real to me still in the sense that I just felt the power of God all over me still and I remember being at the feet of Jesus.  And just being in His presence, so those were the first things that were going through my mind and no one could tell me, no one could convince me, no one could say that Jesus was not real.  I had believed He was real before, I had that conviction, but there was something else that just happened to me like I know that Jesus is real.  There is no way that you can tell me anything different.

Sid:  Now, could you remember anything beyond what you just said to me at that moment?

Dean:  Oh yes, I can remember in the sense of looking at Jesus and a lot of times when I first came back, I’ll be honest with you  I was telling people that I went to be where the Father and Jesus is.  And people said, “Well you went to Heaven.”  And I said, “You know if that’s Heaven, that’s great but I was where the Father and Jesus is.”  I wasn’t so much looking at so much that it was Heaven, I was where Jesus, my Lord was and so I wanted to be in His presence and I would tell people, “If Heaven doesn’t have Jesus or the Father, you don’t want to be there; you want to be where Jesus and the Father is.”  Matter of a matter of fact I came to understand that inside of us we are longing to really be with Jesus and the Father.  Sometimes we say that we want to go to Heaven were really wanting to be in the presence of Jesus and the Father, that’s what we want.  And so I came to really understand…

Sid:  So, you’re home you’re real home if I were to put it in my words, is not this earth, it’s in the presence of God.

Dean:  It is in the presence of God, it’s a great way of putting it.  My real home is in the presence of God.  Now I can tell you right now, because of experiencing that when I go on praying, I always tell people now I’m going home because I’m in the presence of God.

Sid:  But, wait a second now, you pray, you were born again, you were Spirit Filled, you prayed for the sick you saw them recover, you had words of knowledge, you knew about the presence of God, what’s the difference now?

Dean:  I started looking at it from a Heavenly point of view instead of from an earthly point of view.  A lot of times we are describing things or we’re experiencing things from an earthly point of view and yet each and every one of us have the Holy Spirit inside of us to be able to really experience God from a Heavenly point of view.

Sid:  Do more people, do some people have more of the Holy Spirit than others?

Dean:  For me, I came to understand that we have the fullness of God in us in His fullness.  We don’t have a part of Him, or some of Him, we have a fullness of Him.  You know probably before this happened I would have said that some people have more some people you got to do this you got to do that to get more of God.

Sid:  You have to pray more in tongues, you have to read the Bible more you know those sort of things?

Dean:  Yeah, those sort of things.  But when I was before Jesus and He looked at me, saw himself inside of me, as I tell people I was in.  There was nothing else I had to do, His fullness was in me now I understand how much of Him is in me so when I am ministering and I’m going out there to talk to others, even talking to you right now, I know that Jesus is in me working, I know it. 

Sid:  Okay, well tell me some of your experiences.

Dean:  Well, some of the experiences, you mean in being in Heaven?

Sid:  Yes.

Dean:  Okay, some of the experience of being in Heaven was really experiencing the love of Jesus to the fullness.  I tell people I looked at His feet, His feet loved me, what I mean by that is if all I saw of Jesus was His feet, nothing else but His feet and they looked just like John talks about them, being that goldish brass and just talking about the glory that’s coming off of it but what got me was His feet loved me and if I didn’t see another part of Jesus but just His feet I experienced the fullness of His love for me through His feet.  Now there is a word that I’m using and it’s called experience and I like using that because it wasn’t so much a feeling it was experience I experience everything there. 

Sid:  So when the Bible says God is love, you comprehended what it meant. 

Dean:  Yes.  I comprehended what it meant to its fullness, I looked at His hands and they do have the nail prints I tell people, but if I just saw His hands, his hands love me.  Every part of His being, when I looked at Him He love me, not only did He love me but it was like I was the only one He loved.  Knowing that He loved all of God’s creation you know, but coming to the understanding of how much He loves me so much that it is not taking from anybody else that the love He has for me is directed at me and His fullness and it’s not taking it from anyone else.

Sid:  What about His eyes?

Dean:  When I looked into His eyes they are just like John describes them, that flaming fire but again, I got lost in His eyes, even talking to you I have to hold back because I can stop and look into His eyes even now and get lost in them because the love…

Sid:  You’re provoking me to jealousy!  How can I do that?

Dean:  Well…

Sid:  And by the way the job of the gentile believer in Jesus is to provoke the Jew to jealousy so you’re just living up to your job description, but go ahead.

Dean:  Well, I really believe that we all have the Holy Spirit and He show us how to do that and I believe that there are times when you are praying that literally you are experiencing what I experienced and it may not be in the length that I experienced it but it’s still you’re experiencing it.  When I looked into His eyes and I saw that love that he has for me, just for me it was like no one else in this entire universe existed in the sense of that moment He was looking at me.  And I knew that He loved others, but I knew that the love that He was showing for me was that He had for me; it was like it was created just for me.

Sid:  And yet as you just said, He has that same quantity of love for everyone listening to us.

 Dean:  Correct, correct everyone that’s listening.  You know that’s what’s changed part of my prayer life more than anything else about praying for people.  I go places and I take a list of names and people probably don’t know this and I’ll share it with you.  I’ve got over 16,000 names that I have on a piece of paper that I spend time and praying.  I don’t pray for everyone every day I split them up into different areas and I pray for them as the week goes through.  But I believe that when I’m praying for these people, because of the love that I experienced from God and seeing the love of the Father and seeing the love of Jesus toward me and when I communicated with Jesus and communication there was just a thought going back and forth.  I just tell people that it was like a computer downloading; He communicated to me and I communicated back to Him.  And I remember looking in to His eyes and after I thought about myself I would think about someone else and I would think about the love for them.  I would think about someone else and I would see the love for them, and it was like He only loved them.  That changed my prayer life so that when I pray for people I know how much the Lord loves them, He loves them more than I could even imagine or they can think.  It goes on and on and on.

Sid:  You said that you were kind of surprised at who made Heaven and who missed Heaven of people you knew that had died.

Dean:  Well, and that was a surprise to me because there was certain people that I thought would make it and didn’t make it and there are certain people that I didn’t think would make it and made it.  What I mean by that is that God knows the heart.  He takes it out of our hands.

Sid:  So the heart is more important than the façade, what we see on the outside.

Dean:  Correct, I say that to you because I tell people that about Aunt Barbara was a lady in my life my Dad’s sister and loved her dearly and I would have probably told people over and over that Aunt Barbara did not make it to Heaven, but she was there when I got there, she was there.

Sid:  Who was the first person that greeted you?

Dean:  The first person that besides Jesus, I went to the feet of Jesus was my Grandmother Mary and I tell people a lot of times that the reason I believe my Grandmother Mary greeted me was because she was the only one when I was growing up that I knew that loved Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and she spent a lot of time praying for me and my brothers and my mother and my Dad and I really believe I came into the kingdom because of her prayers.  Well right after I accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior my Grandmother died.  So I never really got to communicate with her or talk to her about the faith that I had or the belief that I had.  So when I got there Grandmother Mary she was shiny she had a tear of joy and she had a big smile on her face and she was there to greet me.

Sid:  And she really wanted you to do something when you got back to earth.  We’ll pick up there on tomorrow’s broadcast.

Sid:  My guest is red hot for the Messiah, you know Mike when you encounter the reality of the demonic and then you’re rescued from that demonic by Jesus, it’s said to whom much is forgiven they love much.  I don’t have any other option, but to be madly in love with Jesus and red hot for the Messiah, how about you Mike Shreve?

Mike:  I feel the same way, I am overwhelmed, I searched so hard for God, I spent month, month after month after month alone isolated from 3:30 in the morning until 5:30 at night trying to find God.  When I found Him I was so overwhelmed with gratitude and all I wanted to do was to spend the rest of my life helping others find the truth.

 Sid:  And that’s why we have this brand new book, literally just right off the press called “Truth Seekers” ten amazing people who found it and its ten people in different areas of the New Age that found Jesus.  And this book is, I mean there are so many areas where Christians have mixture and they’re involved a little in New Age and a little of God and they don’t know the difference.  And then there are so many people in the New Age that are what the title of the book is, they are genuine, sincere, loving, truth seekers but they’re not looking in the right direction and so since my background was New Age and Mike’s was New Age we teamed up to come out with this book which is so mandatory understanding for the end times.  You won’t understand the counterfeit, you won’t understand the authentic until you read this book; and then for that friend of yours that’s involved in the New Age that God himself is going to have cross your path, this book has been written for such a time as this.  For those that don’t know my back ground, I was involved in traditional Judaism and I remember as a young kid, Mike I don’t know if you dealt with this subject to the degree I did, but I was so concerned about what happens after I die.  Did you have that interest or you believed in reincarnation?

Mike:  Well, no that’s what motivated me to drop out of college and begin studying under a guru named Yogi Busian.  I had experienced a drug over dose where I really thought I was going to lose my life, I almost died and when I came out of the experience I was shaken to the core of my being; and I knew I needed to find and answer what goes on in this transition from this world to the next, where we are going?

 Sid:  Well, you see coming from a Jewish background Judaism is L’chaim to life, we talk about life, we talk about life we don’t talk about death; now Judaism, traditional Judaism believes in life after death but my parents never discussed it.  And one day I was home alone and the question popped in my mind; I was only six years old, what happens when you die?  And just as a child I tried to speculate in my mind what would life be like if I ceased to exist because since I didn’t know anything about Heaven I figured when you die you cease to exist. And it became so objectionable that I blocked it from my mind until many years later I got involved in the New Age and I remember the particular branch I was into was called Silva Mind Control.  Where you are taught mental exercise to almost lower the speed of your brain waves until you get to a hypnotic state and then you invite what they called a counselor into your head; what the Bible calls a familiar spirit and this counselor began to tell me things I had no way of knowing.  And I got very excited about it because I thought I could make a lot of money and Hollywood had taught me I could make a lot of money if I made a lot of money and one day a Christians said to me, said to me “Sid, according to your own Jewish scriptures you are involved in spiritual adultery.”  And that was shocking to me and he turned to Deuteronomy the 18^th chapter and he read it to me.  Now I came from a good Jewish background, but did I know this?  No and most of my Jewish friends and most of my Christian friends were involved in these New Age meditation courses.  But this is what God’s word says in Deuteronomy 18 verse 9 to 12.  “You shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations, there shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire.”  You know Mike what I believe that is, that’s just what’s called abortion today is the practice that they had back then, they sacrificed children.  That is what abortion is, “Sacrificing children or one who practices witchcraft or a soothsayer or one who interprets omens or sorcerer or one who condors spells or medium or spiritists or one who calls up the dead.  For all who do these things are abomination,” and you know I didn’t even believe the Bible came from God at that time but just in case what he was saying to me was true I went into neutral gear and I started reading the Bible that he had given me and I got the shock of my life.  A friend of mine who had a counselor that told him the most wonderful things about what would happen in the future, I said.  “What do you see me doing in the future?”  And this counselor started cursing him and he said Sid, that had never happened before and then I got into something called astral-projection and I was afraid to go to asleep at night for fear my spirit would leave my body and go somewhere else and I would be, you know Rod Sterling had nothing on what my imagination was of the horrible fate that was in store for me.  I saw myself being buried alive and I through a series of events that was explained in the book I came to the conclusion there was a demon inside of me and I want it out, but I didn’t know how to get rid of it.  If I went to a rabbi he couldn’t help me I’m Jewish so I wouldn’t go to a pastor or a priest.  A physiatrist, he couldn’t help me; I found that there was no where I could go and so on the worse day of my life,  remember as a young kid I was afraid of death, I was so afraid I didn’t even want to think about it.  I had so much fear Mike that death looked better to me than life and I remember crying out to God and saying, Jesus help!  Because at that time I had been reading the Bible and I had heard that there was stronger power in the Name of Jesus than in this power that was making me not want to live and when I cried out Jesus help.  I went to sleep through sheer exhaustion and when I woke up the greatest peace I had never experienced this peace in the New Age; I had never experienced I had never been on drugs, I had never been an alcoholic so I don’t know what that’s like, but no drug, no alcoholic, No new Age could compare.  When people tell me what is the difference between the peace that people have in the New Age and the peace that God has is the difference between day and night.  It was so tangible, it was so wonderful that if I wanted to worry, if I wanted to fear; that peace overcame worry, that peace overcame fear.  And I then decided I’d really research on who Jesus was and I was 100% convinced that He was the Messiah.  And you know that there are several Jewish people in this book that we’ve just came out with truth seekers.  One is Rafi Cohen; tell me a couple of things that interested you about Rafi Mike.

Mike:  Well, Rafi’s story is experience is amazing, your story is amazing.  I found your chapter one of the most intriguing chapters in the book.  But Rafi from an early age as a child had encounters with spirit beings that would be termed by New Agers as spirit guides.  And while you were testifying I thought to myself that how subtle that counterfeit is because one of the main things the Holy Spirit comes into our life to do is to guide us.  Jesus said that He will lead you and guide you into all truth.  Well there’s something inside of every human being that lets us know that we need a guide through life.  We need a supernatural, supernaturally inspired guidance that will lead us in this world to the next.  And so New Agers reach out through various means to try and find these favorable friendly spirit beings or spirit guides that will help them navigate through the spiritual world.  But that’s forbidden like the scripture you just read in Deuteronomy 18; that is forbidden in scripture.  Why?  Is God denying the legitimate experiences and just preventing us from having an experience of the supernatural because He wants to control us?  No, He is trying to keep us from spiritual deception and I find Rafi Cohen’s story to be absolutely amazing to me.

 Sid:  Well, what I think is so amazing to me, the highlight to me on Rafi’s interview and I know him, he’s a friend of mine now, is that he was headed out with a whole group of New Agers that he was their guru, he was their teacher in a bus and he was looking for Edgar Casey because he thought that Edgar Casey was a Christian; because he had heard the term Christ conciseness which is the opposite of Christianity and he ended up in the parking lot of the 700 Club.  I mean God is so good, he was headed wrong and God rearranged his steps and he became a believer in the Messiah.  Our time has slipped away, but these are some of the most fascinating stories you’ll ever read in your life.  You’ll begin to understand the difference between the authentic supernatural and the counterfeit supernatural.  And for the person God has had cross your path that’s in the New Age, you’ll be able to give them this book and they won’t be able to put it down…

Sid:     Shalom, Mishpochah, Shalom Family you know something I’m using the word family here and what we’re talking about this week is the destruction of the family in the most diabolical fashion.  And you realize that if our family is destroyed we’ll have no society.  I’m speaking to Dr. Michael Brown about his brand new book, “A Queer Thing Happened to America” on yesterday’s broadcast we were talking about how our schools are being so infiltrated with techs books and agenda’s that make homosexuality a normal acceptable lifestyle and Hollywood is not hurting that situation.  What’s Hollywood doing, Dr. Michael Brown?

Mike:  Oh, Hollywood is the great amazing tool for gay activism and let me, I just want to underscore with what these means in the schools and then explain how Hollywood plays right into this in an amazing way.  David Parker and his wife Tonya were upset when their first grader came home, their son Jacob came home with a diversity bag from school, including a book of who’s in a family and it had pictures of families with two Dads, two Moms etc. so he went to the school and said I want to be notified, he went to the school where his son was being taught and he said I want to be notified when this is going to be taught, if you are going to be talking about sexual issues, same sex marriages, these kinds of things, I want to be notified.  We’re talking about a six year old!  He was told no, we are going to do what we are going to do and same sex marriage is legal here, you got no leg to stand on.  Well, he fought it in court and the courts ruled and the Supreme Court refused to hear it and this is now national law Sid.  The courts ruled that it’s more important to teach diversity than to honor the requests of the parents and diversity of course is the code word, the code word that is used for gay activism.  So here’s what happened now in the media and film critic, and Orthodox Jew, Michael Medved points this out.  If Martian gathering evidence about American society simply by monitoring our television would certainly assume that there were more gay people in American than there are Evangelical Christians.  And in 1989, two Harvard trained gay social scientists Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madison and in their famous book “After the Ball” this is what they called for, this is 1989 Sid, “The Conversion of the average American’s emotions, mind, and will through a planned physiological attack in the form of propaganda feed to the nation via the media.”  And here’s an article that comes out, Time Magazine 2007 by Michael Kinsley called “The Quiet Gay Revolution says this; the debate of fourteen years ago about gays in the military seems almost quaint.  Kids grow up today with gay friends, gay parents, gay parents of friends, gay friends of parents, kids are also exposed constantly to an entertainment culture in which gays are not really merely accepted but in some ways dominant.  You rarely see a reality show without a gay cast member, while Rosie O’Donnell was a covenant free agent and Ellen DeGeneres is America’s sweet heart.

Sid:  So, how does this minority of minorities have such control, it must be supernatural, Mike?  

Mike:  There’s something demonic because the world loves its own, it’s playing into darkness, it’s legitimizing something of wrong and look, each of these people that I mentioned, Rosie O’Donnell, Ellen DeGeneres, there are all people Jesus loves, Jesus died for; He shed the same blood for heterosexual and for homosexual, but when you think of a population that’s roughly 3% what’s happened is others have a lied themselves with them.  They’ve said, this is about equality, this is about justice, and this is about intolerance; and who is it that’s standing in the way of it, those bigoted, those bigoted evangelicals!  So Michael Medved gave his quote I’ve expanded on it.  The Martian watching our TV and movies would also conclude that gay people with rare or no exception were incredibly nice, family oriented and considerate, while Evangelical Christians were all mean spirited, judgmental, dull, greedy, hypocritical.  I go through the book and I went on line, I research shows; I watch things on u-tube; because I’m not much of a TV watcher otherwise I read the actual scripts.  You’re talking about the will and grace generation where a certain face has been put on sexuality to take away any offensive to it.  To take away any parts of it where the behavior is offense or the consequences with sexually transmitted diseases or dangers just remove that and put only exclusively a nice face on it.  So whether its law and order shows, I’m talking about standard gay propaganda; one in ten is homosexual; you’re born that way; you can’t change; any attempts to change people come from religious bigotry that lead to suicide etc.  Boston legal, it doesn’t matter who it is; Barbara Walters interviewing someone; Sixty Minutes; Oprah born in the wrong body; it’s all out there.  And things are such now Sid, in Hollywood there was a bit of an uproar when “Brokeback Mountain” came out and now on major screens theaters all over America this Oscar Winning Movie has two men in sexual acts and most Christians hardly knew it happened or be so desensitized by other junk and trash that they’ve taken in that they don’t even care about it.  Well, a movie comes out recently, “Breakfast with Scott” do you hear a national uproar from Christians about it?  Of course not, who even thinks about it, two gay men who end up taken in a gay kid that is even more outwardly gay then they are, was like eleven years old.

Sid:   But, Mike my question to you is our Administration has already stated publically their position; Hollywood has shown their position; our school system is showing their position why even bother with this new book?  I mean it looks like it’s enviable it looks that way Mike.

Mike:  In the natural it’s too late, but with God all things are possible.  Sid, God spoke to me to write the book and He spoke to me not me alone but with His body to turn back the tide of homosexual activism.  I am convinced Sid to the core of my being by divine calling that we are about to see a cultural awakening, that we are about to see a moral and spiritual revolution based on love, based on the power of the Spirit.  Sid, I’m convinced just like in the Jesus People Movement when there was a massive harvest of hippies, rebels, radicals when I got saved as a heroin shooting teenager, I’m convinced were are going to see a massive outpouring of the love of God in the Homosexual Community and pastors are going to have to start to deal with people coming in.   They won’t know how to handle these issues.  We’ve got to get ready for an awakening that’s coming in the natural it seems impossible but that’s the gospel, the Messiah is born of a virgin, the forerunner of the Messiah is born to an old woman who can’t have children.  God works through impossible situations.  I am not looking for gradual cultural improvement through a better government.  I am looking for Resurrection; I am looking for awakening by the power of the gospel.  In the natural it’s totally impossible, it’s depressing, it’s hopeless, but with God we are about to see change and I believe simply by the purpose of God this book it going to help ignite an awakening in America. 

Sid:   I believe that too and that’s why I have you on my show.  But, I think it is, I mean it is amazing in America a book like yours that every Christian, everyone that says they believe in the name of Jesus, every person that has a child or a grandchild and wants to see that person have the same future that we were able to have; the same opportunities that we were able to have… this is going to be part of great awakening coming to America.  Mike tell me just briefly about why this is a threat to our religious liberties.

Mike:  Oh, Sid because we are the last bastion in there, there use to be two groups, there was the psychologists and there were the religious people.  The psychologists said homosexuality was a disorder, that had to be overcome, that was removed from the books in 1973.  The last thing that is standing against the flood of gay activism transforming our nation to the put that it will be consider a disorder to stand against it; that it will be criminal to stand against it; the last bastion, the last hope, the last light is the people of God, the church.  If the light within us is darkness, how great is the darkness?  Martin Luther King said, “The church is neither the master of the state nor the servant of the state, but the conscience of the state.”  We’re the salt and light if we don’t do this it’s over, we can forget about society, family, church as we know it.  It’s not hype, its reality.

Sid:   What about rewriting the Bible from a gay agenda?

Mike:  I own a library of books on this subject, because I dove in to do the research Sid.  I own books like, “Queer Bible” commentary and “Religion is a Queer Thing.”  I’m not just talking about people trying to say Jonathan and David were lovers or Jesus and John were lovers or Mary and Martha were lovers, I mean it goes on and on, I’m talking about blasphemous stuff by major scholars in the gay and lesbian movement, that’s I’ve got a whole…

Sid:   When will someone be like David when he when up against Goliath?  Is there not a cause?  I mean, can’t you hear the Spirit of God saying that your children, your grandchildren are at stake?  I would like people that have bible studies to take your brand new book Mike and make it a Bible study.  Let’s get knowledgeable on …we’ve got the media giving us one side and it’s out of the pit of hell, we have Administration lining up with them, we have Hollywood lining up with them, someone somewhere has to be like David.

Mike:  Sid, a pastor came up to me, I was in rural North Carolina; I had been invited in by some pastors to talk about this issue.  Afterwards they began to come up to me privately to tell me what was happening.  One pastor told me this, this is rural North Carolina 2010,  he said “my daughter goes to a High School here in the area, I didn’t want to mention the name publically, one of her good friends was on the high school girls softball team, she quit the softball team because she was the only non lesbian on the team; rural North Carolina.  A friend of a friend moved from Pace, Florida to Orlando, Florida where she began to teach seventh grade kids, she was a seventh grade school teacher, she couldn’t take it after one year because half of the girls in her seventh grade class identified as Lesbian.  This is reality, Sid I’ve talked about these things in public, eye opening, mind boggling things happening in front of her eyes and then I’ve had teachers pull me over afterwards and say you have no idea what’s happening.  I’m talking about this stuff we are talking about here.  Detailed documented in my …

Sid:   Mike, we out of time.

Sid:  My guest “red hot” is almost an understatement for Todd White; Todd has this special anointing of words of knowledge to talk to people in the street to demonstrate the kingdom of God.  Todd, out of curiosity, is it easier to get a Christian that believes in healing that has been in the church for thirty years that has never experienced the healing themselves and seen very little, is it difficult to get someone like that healed or is it easier to get a nonbeliever in the street healed?

Todd:  Well, I’m really glad that you asked that.  One of the things that is so important is destroying lives, because strongholds are produce actually where someone has preached from a pulpit to a Christian that has been in the church for thirty years, where they have preached out of personal experience that didn’t line up with what the Word of God says.  So now what they do is preach that and it is counter to what the Word says at the cost of God’s Word because they have to explain something that has happened in their life.  So now you encounter that person out there on the street or you encounter that person at Wal-Mart, because it’s not just street evangelism.  This is a kingdom lifestyle of twenty-four seven living for Him and not for me because I have laid my life down.  So this thing is so amazing that, when I approach somebody, no matter what they believe, no matter what they’ve been taught, that has nothing to do with what I believe as the representative of God.  So what I believe will trump their unbelief because it says there signs will follow those that believe.  It doesn’t say these signs will follow those being prayed for; it doesn’t matter where a person is it matters where I am, because I’m the ambassador, I’m the representative.  So when I pray for somebody I don’t see any worse case scenario whether they are praying for somebody that’s been in the church, all I need to do is get my hands on them.  And sometimes that’s not even necessary.  But I don’t see any more resistance as far as healing comes for an unbeliever and somebody that’s been raised in religion for forty-five years.

Sid:  Tell me some of your favorite experiences. 

Todd:  Wow, okay well let me just real quick just destroy one lie.  We’ve been taught that when you pray for somebody you have to be careful, you don’t want to lay hands on somebody to hastily, and that’s in Timothy and it talks about that, but when it talks about it in Timothy it talks about it as far as far as ordination of people into leadership and deaconship.  It talks about ordaining people into office, it has nothing to do with praying for people that have…that are new age or witches or occult; it doesn’t matter.

Sid:  So you have no problem with laying hands on someone know is a new ager?

Todd:  Oh, I love it, because they’ll see God.  I love that, that’s so good.

Sid:  Now, do most people feel the presence of God when you lay hands on them and pray for them?

Todd:  Well sure! 

Sid:  Ha ha.  I like the way you say that. 

Todd:  Yeah, cause that’s all…see I don’t have, my motivation is love and so if that’s Jesus’ motivation and people felt the presence of God when Jesus touched them then the same thing should happen through me.  So what I do is, I’m the representative; I’ll just give you an example of what I’m talking about.  When we went to Wal-Mart two years ago, my wife and I did and we were going in and these two people walked by the front of the truck or the front of the vehicle and they were garbed out in black and the guy had tattoos down both sides of his cheeks, down his eyes, the whole way down them.  My wife says, “Oh my goodness.”  And I said, “Oh man, God is so going to, so going to land on them, this is going to be so good.”  So we went in, I didn’t chase them down or anything, but I know that God will line it up because he wants to touch them.  So I walked down the aisle in Wal-Mart and they’re at the end of the aisle so I go up to these two people and I said “Hey, how you doing today?”  And the lady looks at me kind a like drops her chin down and looks with her eyes up and she goes, “fine.”  And I said wow, it doesn’t sound like fine, it sounds like you are kinda upset.  She said, “No I’m fine, what do you want?”  I said, actually I said, I was just coming down here because I’m hearing in my heart that you have a back issue.  And she said, “Yeah, so what?” I said, “Well, can I tell you what it is?”  She goes, “Go ahead,” and she crossed her arms.  And I said to her, “Well you’ve got like a herniated disk and you’ve this sciatic stuff down your leg and its making your foot numb.”  She said, “Yeah, it’s hereditary.”  And I said, “I know and actually people were telling you that because your father had it, that’s why you have it.  She goes, “That’s right.”  I said, “Look since I told you about your back, I say you let me pray for you, she goes “Honey, we don’t believe in the same thing.”  I said, “Really, I’m not concerned about what you believe in, I said that doesn’t a matter anything, right now.  I said my thing is let me pray for you.  She goes “Well, I don’t believe in that,” I said, “Good, then let me pray for you, you have nothing to lose.”  She said, “Okay.”  So I prayed for her and the presence of God swept through her and the leg and her back got on fire and her toes immediately denumbed right there.  She goes, “I don’t think you understand.” I said, I do God just healed you.  She goes, “You don’t get it we don’t believe the same thing.”  I said, “Cool what do you believe?” She said, “I’m a satanic high priest.” A priestess. I said, “Awesome, I know a high priest too and He so loves you, you are amazing.”  And she is so freaked out that she starts telling me how she went to seminary school, she took theology and she was crushed and hurt by people that were teaching in the seminary and that she turned from that and she pressed into darkness.  Because there is a real power of darkness, but the real power of darkness is nothing compared to the kingdom of light that we’ve been translated into?  So all she needs is a God experience to be completely loved on by God Himself, she looks at her friend after I shared the kingdom with her and she had tears in her eyes.  She said, I told you Jesus was a cool dude.  Now, she’s a satanic high priestess for like twelve years and God landed on her and healed her and loved on her, because he loved her because she’s had the gospel misrepresented and since people have been taught that God’s in control all kinds of stuff is happening and it’s not God behind it.  God can make lemonade out of any lemons but it is not God that gave you the lemon.

Sid:  Do you know what that reminds me of, there are many Jewish people and their elderly now that survived Hitler’s holocaust and many of them, forget Jesus, they’ve become atheists because they say “How could a loving God have allowed something like this to happen?”  What would you say to them?

Todd:  I would say this, I would say in John 10:10 it is very clear where it talks about the description of the enemy and the description of God.  Where it says the thief comes but to steal, to kill and to destroy and Jesus said, but I have come to give them life and that they may have it more abundantly.  And that abundant word means violently excessive life.  Now we know that satan can’t come up into heaven to steal, kill, and destroy so it’s talking about present tense in this life.  And we know we will have abundant life when we get to heaven, but Jesus is talking about abundant life now.  So now in my left hand I have death, loss and destruction and in my right hand I have abundant life and I would simply ask them if you were to put in one of these hands what you went through would it be stealing, killing and destroying or would it be the abundant life?

Sid:  Well, no brainer it’s stealing, killing and destroying.

Todd:  Simple, the problem is is that we’ve been taught that well, God’s in control, God’s in control.  And in Psalms 115 verse 16 it says, “The heaven, even the heavens are Lord’s but the earth He did give to the children of men.  If God was in control he wouldn’t have given it to the children of men.  He wouldn’t have told us to be stewards over it, he wouldn’t have given authority to man.  If God was in control you wouldn’t have the power to speak both life and death from your tongue.  But because you have free will, you can choose to speak death and mark somebody for a loss or you can choose to speak life and mark somebody and God will know who to the write the check to by the words of encouragement that no corrupt words come from out of your mouth only that were used to encourage and edify and build up those who hear you.  So God’s not in control, he actually given it to us.  We’ve preached that and if God was in control, why would I need faith?  Why would I need to pray?  For whatever is to be will be.  And if it’s impossible to please God without faith, that’s just contradictory to what God said, He’s not in control.  But that is preached and its created a passive and a complaisant church that sits back and it gets run over by the enemy whose is death, loss and destruction while God takes the rap and satan slivers away like the snake in the grass.  In the garden he was cursed to crawl on his belly and in the book of revelation he’s a seven headed monster, a dragon and we’ve created that we’ve allowed him to be that big.  If the highest part of hell is beneath the lowest part of us, I think we have to realize who we are and if you want to send a message to satan, write it on the sole of your shoe.

Sid:  Tell me about the man that could not bend his leg for over thirty years because he had two steel rods.

Todd:  Yeah, of that was a really neat one too.  I was in a church in Virginia and I was getting ready to preach a service and it was a first day that I was there.  The pastor had just been introduced to me and I hadn’t really established a relationship before that point and I have the lapel mike on and he’s about ready to introduce me and the Holy Spirit says, “Run outside.”  So I ran down the side of the church, I ran out the front door and the pastor has left there and my mike is on and now I’m running down the side walk and I see a homeless guy that’s coming across the street in a wheelchair.  So I went up to him and said you’re the reason why I’m coming out here right now.  He said, “Why?”  I said, “Because you are in a wheelchair,” I said and God wants to get you out of there.”  He said, “Well I don’t believe in that.”  I said, “That’s okay man, I’m not asking you to believe in that right now.”  I said “Look,” I said “What’s going on what happened?”  He said, “In 1976 I fell off of a bridge and I severely broke my leg.”  And what happened was that they put two steel rods from his chin on each side of his leg up the sides of the knee all the way up to the femur and they put screws in the whole way down.  So his leg is literally frozen out there with steel rods and it’s calcified because it’s been frozen in that place since 1976.  I said man, “I got to pray for your leg; he goes, “Well, I just fell two days ago and broke these ribs.”  I said, “Are you in pain.”  He said, “Awe, it’s terrible.”  I said, “Come on man I’m going to pray for you.”  And I went to put my hand inside his jacket and he said, “Don’t touch me,” and I had to even if he hit me I have to because I have to give him the encounter with God that God sent me out there for. 

Sid:  Tomorrow we’ll find out what happened in this encounter.

Sid: Hello. Why? Why would a loving God send people created in His image to an eternal Hell? As a matter of fact, an eternal Hell with torment and suffering 24/7, eternally. Why would He do this? Why would He even create a Hell? Bill, why?

Bill: Well first of all, God doesn’t send anybody to Hell. People send themselves to Hell by the rejection of the directions He gives for them how to stay out of Hell. They reject how he tells them to stay out. But Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. It wasn’t meant for man to go to.

Sid: So it was actually, it was created for a purpose, but not for humans to go there.

Bill: Right. And what people really behind their thoughts are, how can a loving God send a good person? Because everybody thinks they’re good. But three reasons that won’t work, and just to give one quickly. An analogy will help here. If you went and found a home, the most expensive home in the country and knocked on their door and you said, “Excuse me, I’m moving in with you because I’m a good person,” what would you think the people would say? No, right? You wouldn’t expect them to let you to move in because you have no relationship with them. Yet people go through their whole life, they have nothing to do with God. They denied Jesus as the son of God, which he said is the only way to His house. Then at the end of their life and they come and knock on his door and they say, “Excuse me, I’m moving in with you because I’m a good person.” Good has nothing to do with it. They have no relationship with Him. It’s not based on being good. It’s based on a relationship. So that’s unreasonable to expect to live in someone’s house when you don’t know them, you see. So you have to have a relationship with God.

Sid: Okay. Annette, you told me at 3:23 in the morning, how did you know it was 3:23, by the way?

Annette: I looked at our clock. That was the first thing I did. It was right beside the bed.

Sid: What did you hear?

Annette: I heard screams coming from our living room and I proceeded down the hallway, and I found my husband in a state that I have never, ever seen him in, Sid. Anyone who knows Bill, knows his character, his nature is very calm, conservative, steady as he goes. He’s been that way all of his life. So to see your husband traumatized in a fetal position on our living room floor was really, really shocking.

Sid: What was your first though?

Annette: I thought he was dying. I thought I needed to call emergency services. And he began to scream out.

Bill: Pray. Pray for me. The Lord is taking me to Hell.

Annette: And when he said, I felt relief inside, which I know that was God giving me some kind of peace in that crisis.

Sid: I know. But why would you even believe that?

Annette: Because I knew him. I knew him from the years we were dating, from all of his clients, friends that I met. I saw his character over and over again as we were dating. I believed him immediately. Now keep in mind we had only been married one year. But I still believed him right away.

Sid: Well Bill?

Bill: You know, Sid, to explain a little bit more so people understand, too. Everybody is not God’s child. People think we’re all God’s children. You’re not His child. He’s your creator but He’s not your Father until you invite in Jesus. So people going to Hell, He’s not their Father. Because He loves everyone, He gives man a choice, a free will to choose. And man chooses to reject the way He said to stay out of Hell. They choose on their own. They say, “I don’t believe you, God. I don’t believe your work.” And they send themselves to Hell. But another reason is because Hebrews 12:29 says, “He’s a consuming fire.” What that means is if I stuck my hand into the fire to retrieve something and the fire burned me, I wouldn’t say, “Why did that fire burn me? That was mean of that fire.” I wouldn’t say that, would I? Because the nature of the fire is to burn. Well God’s nature is to consume sin. So sinful man and a holy God are not compatible, just like the fire and your hand are not compatible. So you can’t show up in God’s presence the way we are. We would be consumed.

Sid: But how does God feel about sending humans created in His image to a burning Hell? Of course, as you explained He’s not sending them. They’re sending themselves. He’s in the process of rescuing them.

Annette: He will.

Bill: Right. He wept. When he saw people falling down this tunnel we came out he wept when he saw people going into Hell. He doesn’t want to see one person. He loves everyone. He gave his life. That’s why he gave his life, to keep people out of Hell. To say this loving God died a horrible death to keep people out. And he wept when he saw people going, because it was by their own choice they were sending themselves to Hell.

Sid: Okay. We’ve done an investigation of Bill. We understand that he was a good Christian. We have references from former retired chief of police, his pastor, etc. We know that he was a good Christian. We know that he shared Jesus with people from time to time. But Annette, you know him better than anyone. How has he changed as a result of this experience?

Annette: Well number one, he left his career because he had such an urgency inside now to tell people about Jesus, about the love of God, and to warn people not to go to this place. He has such an urgency now, Sid, and a compassion for people. He doesn’t want to see one person go there. It’s changed our life.

Sid: Bill, I have to tell you, I believe in a literal Hell. I’ve never seen it, obviously. I believe in eternal torment. But somehow, until someone reads your material and sees the DVD, the urgency isn’t there. What is the difference between the way you were and the way you are right now?

Bill: When you understand how severe Hell is you’ll be much more appreciative of what God saved you from. You’ll have more of a healthy reverential fear of God and you’ll have this passion for the lost, because that’s what we’re to do, is share the good news with people so they understand. It’s like I said, sharing information so they can make an informed decision.

Sid: Annette, how did this change you?

Annette: The same way. I mean, I left, my career was very successful as well. And I’d share with people sometimes. But now I want to take every opportunity. And it’s not to beat people over the head with the Bible. It’s just to share the love of God and so that maybe one more person won’t go to this place. And it makes you get rid of your fears and your hang-ups, and just go after God and do His will.

Bill: It gives you a better overall eternal perspective, what’s really important.

Sid: You talk about the experience of the love of God.

Bill: Yes.

Sid: Tell me about that.

Bill: He shared with me that piece of his heart. I couldn’t stand, Sid, feeling what he felt, the pain he feels for seeing people going to Hell. And I said, “Lord, stop. I can’t even feel even a piece of what you feel.” And he allowed me to just experience a little bit of his heart, and he wept over just one person going to Hell.

Sid: How about you? Would you weep over one person that you know is going to Hell?

Bill: Yes. That’s why we’ve gone and traveled. And it doesn’t matter. I’m not here to convince people to believe my experience. I’m just here as a sign post to point them to at least check out what the Word of God has to say and please avoid this place at all costs.

Sid: Now how do you even survive today with the trauma you went through?

Bill: I have no problems whatsoever. God removed all that from me. I just have the passion that He left me, because I still remember the sights of Hell. That will never leave me, seeing people burning and the torment they feel for all eternity, never to get out of there. If I can influence one person to stay out of here, any uncomfortableness that I feel is worth it all.

Sid: Well you know something? If there was no Hell, and there is, if there wasn’t eternal torment, and there is, if there wasn’t eternal suffering, and there is, just to know the love of God in this life, I would not, I don’t know how I existed without knowing the love of God. I don’t know I existed without knowing that God was interested in me as an individual. And then to find out that God is as interested in every human as He was in me, and they don’t even realize it, and they have to live in this world without having an intimate relationship with the living God, and the price has already been paid. And Jesus died for your sins, and if you repent of your sins and tell him you’re sorry, he will wash them away and live inside of you. It’s so wonderful. It is so wonderful. You know, even if there wasn’t, I think who would want to miss that?

Bill: I know. Why would you want to take a chance with your eternal soul and gamble that, and miss the love of God anyway?

My guest is red hot for the Messiah, he kind of had an unfair advantage and that was he had a mother that had a visitation from Jesus, a nice Jewish mother that had a visitation from Jesus and how could she help but worship all the time?  And so he was raised in that type of an atmosphere and you know as I was listening to your teaching, Renny on worship; which I am so amazed at what happens because it’s not just that people have an open heaven as they listen to your teaching.  They will learn how to have an open heaven twenty-four seven in their own homes, in their cars, where ever they are.  But as I was listening to it you made an interesting point, and something I did years ago and then I got away from it.  And it has to do with singing; you were talking about singing over people.  I use to have a healing line and I would lay hands on people and I accidently found one day that I started singing rather than speaking my prayer.  Singing over each person and as I sang over each person the anointing got stronger, it doesn’t make sense to me; do you have any idea why?

Renny:  I do, I do, I do because I tell you something, because the glory of God is in the sound.  The glory of eternity is in our voice print.  When we begin to worship, God begins to work for our worship on the earth.  And that’s why…what we begin to sing is what God begins to do.  That’s the power, that’s the beauty of it.  If we speak the word we know he will do it.  But the glory of it is when you rest in the word and sing it; and he’ll do it just as if you said it because really you are still saying it; you’re just saying it in a different way. 

Sid:  Yeah, but what I found when I sang it it was stronger; that’s what I don’t understand; it was stronger than when I said it.

Renny:  Because when you sing it Sid, every time you sing; you see when you speak that’s not worship, you’re declaring, that’s a whole different tone.  But now when you sing, it is coming from the atmosphere of worship which means, it’s coming from the glory realm and not a faith realm.  So that’s why…

Sid:  Now what does that mean, it’s coming from the glory realm and not a faith realm?

Renny:  Okay let me give you an example; there are three realms of the supernatural.  There is a faith realm, there’s the realm of the anointing, and then there’s the glory of God.  The glory of God is the atmosphere of God, the manifest presence of God.  Faith, faith is the substance of heaven on earth; that’s why it’s called substance.  Faith connects us to the world beyond.  Okay the anointing is not for the beyond, the anointing is for here.   And so when we’re singing and we’re worshipping we’re singing from the heavens.  Were not singing to get there, were singing from that position because, you know you look at it from a redemptive point of view.  The Bible says were risen with Christ and were seated, so technically speaking we are actually singing from the heavens.

Sid:  Well, you teach about we can be in two places at one time, which I never heard until you talked about that. 

Renny:  Oh yeah, were in two places at once Sid, and also this is really what’s so powerful about it is that when we begin to sing, and the Glory of God begins to come forth.  God just begins to do things and it’s something I believe we are going to see more and more and more of when we really just begin to worship God.  Because in heaven, in heaven there’s nothing, oh thank you Jesus, in heaven there’s nothing not done.  So when you are worshipping and you said that you were singing over people, you were just worshipping in the absoluteness of the fact that everything is done, done, done because anything that’s not done cannot be in harmony.  Everything that’s done is in harmony and so that’s why the Bible says by whose strips you are and then Peter said, by those strips you were.  So you’re singing in now from eternity now; so it literally has a weight of glory on it; so Sid I’m not surprised when you said that you started to sing it that it got stronger yet because it was coming from heaven Hallelujah.

Sid:  Explain this to me, people like say, I’m picking on Kathryn Kaulman this week, but people like Kathryn Kaulman, she seemed to have certain songs, music that she’d have Dino or Jimmy sing and it was sometimes the same songs.  Why would she do that versus diversity; having lots of different songs? 

Renny:  Because there are some…, Sid I’m so glad that you asked this question, because I believe God’s going to put keys in people’s lives.  There are some songs that forever will work because it’s a forever affirmation of who God is and what He is.  So there are some songs you can sing in the next fifty years it will be ever be as powerful, because the song can carry that power.  Like let me give you some songs up front.  When I say them to you it will bring a lot to your mind.  Let me give you some of those power songs that really carries the majesty of God.  For example now, “How Great Thou Art;” that’s never died because of the power of it, you know.  And the new way I’ve heard people sing it today is, “How Great Is Our God!”  Notice it’s a declaration to the atmosphere to the earth, to the environment, how great, how powerful, how awesome, how magnificent is our God.  So those songs carry that kind of power. 

Sid:  So in a church service a worship leader has to be sensitive to the exact song that God wants, not the one that sounds the best.

Renny:  Exactly, exactly, exactly, exactly, exactly any song that speaks about you evokes the flesh, that’s why worship is a total divorce from you, because it’s not you it’s coming from God and it’s of God.  And so that’s something today that some of our songs need to be really changed.  Because in reality were singing partly about, which has nothing to do with you, it’s all about Him.  Like, let me give you another song let me give you some songs that we know that really can carry the power of God.  Oh, for example this is a song that everybody knows you know.  Our God is an Awesome God. Notice what we are saying, Sid, He’s an awesome God.  He who reigns, He rules see those kind of songs will create the atmosphere for God to show that He is awesome.  That He is powerful, because that’s what we are singing, that He is.  And so when you sing that it creates the atmosphere for you to release your faith for God to do anything.  But some of the songs we sing today are self centered and the self centered songs takes you inward, takes you to you and not to God and there not powerful.  That’s the problem that we have now and so today, in a lot of our worship leaders, I love every worship leader but sometime we are singing songs to sooth our soul and were not speaking to the majesty and the power and the magnificence of an ever living God.

Sid:  And the worse extreme of what you’re describing is famous singers in Hollywood or on television that were called by God to be psalmists and lead great corporate worship.  They literally sold their gift for the things of this world. 

Renny:  Oh, that’s so sad, and to think about that God gave them a sound.

Sid:  Take Elvis, tell me about Elvis.

Renny:  Now Elvis was an incredible man, I tell you why I say Elvis was incredible; do you know that once upon a time we went to Memphis and we went to his house to see his mansion and we learned something about his music.  They said every time Elvis went into the studio he was searching for a new sound.  Isn’t that interesting?  He was searching for a new sound, but they always said that he always preferred the spiritual songs.  They said that he was like a different man when he sung them and so I put it down, a lot of them sold out, you know why Sid?  And I hate to say this, but I just got to say this is because the church back then could not take a new sound.

Sid:  That’s interesting.

Renny:  So what happened was, so the enemy created a market for their voice and so that’s what we’re seeing today.  Some of the greatest people we know out there right now, the sound was put in them when they were in church.

Sid:  Let’s just take a moment cause our time is slipping away.  What is the basic message of your teaching, “Matter Doesn’t Matter?”

Renny:  Oh my goodness, oh my God so much…okay matter from a scientific point of view is constantly changing, it’s constantly changing.  That’s why when the presence of God, oh my goodness, I’m just hearing the word of the Lord, when the presence of God comes through worship the reason why you can get miracles of all kinds, creative miracles, healing, whatever is because matter doesn’t matter.  So a crippled leg can be made straight, a back can be made straight because when the glory of God is present, matter doesn’t matter; it sets you free.  It lets you know that your condition is not permanent.  It is subject to change because matter doesn’t matter.

Sid:  You know on tomorrow’s broadcast you got a revelation just the other day, a prophetic word from heaven about the currency war that is going to happen in the world.  I’d like you to talk about that.  And if you enjoy my conversation with Dr. Renny McLean you will love our television show because Dr. McLean has been a guest for two weeks on my TV show.  You can go to our web to find out where we are on television or actually see the show on demand.  It’s Sid Roth.org, WWW.Sid Roth.org.  Renny is it your favorite thing to worship God?

Renny:  Yes.  It’s my favorite thing Sid because you can’t closer to God than worship then through worship.  And that’s when I really feel the greatness of God is through worship.  I mean I feel the infusion of His life and His power.  In fact even as I’m talking right now, there is somebody being healed and being touched and being set free; because their realizing right now, nothing matters to you more now than the presence of God.  And every foreign power is subject to and it bows its knee to the presence of God.  You know Sid, I so recommend the people to really get into that revelation.

Sid:  This subject this week is an area that most churches don’t talk about and just about every problem in your life if you can get rid of the demonic spirit you can get victory.  I have Mel Bond on the telephone, I’m interviewing him on his new book, “Understanding Your Worst Enemy” and see Mel was taught by the Lord these truths many years ago.  And I have learned things that have been so beneficial as I read his book.  Most Christians are defeated in many areas because they failed to understand the invisible realm.  And you must learn how to recognize the demon that’s coming against you, how to cast it out.  You’ve got to develop your spiritual senses and activate the Gift of Discernment and all your senses will be activated in the invisible world.  And this book literally will equip you for that and you’ll find out the spirits behind every problem in your life.  And you’ll begin to understand how these demons think and how they operate.  And as far as I’m concerned the best part of this book, Mel Bond is if anyone is flirting with any degree of sin, once they realize the door that their opening they won’t want to open it any more.  I think when someone reads your book they’re going to start walking in more holiness than they ever had in their life.  Well, I mean they would have to be stupid to want to open doors to the demonic, would you agree Mel?

Mel:  Absolutely.

Sid:  And on yesterday’s broadcast you brought out such an important principal.  You were talking about…you were dealing with your natural senses to find out if the demons that you commanded to leave had left.  And you found out that you were dealing in the wrong arena. 

Mel:  Absolutely, first of all maybe I need to just emphasize a little bit or give a little bit of a teaching in what it means to rebuke the enemy or rebuke demons.  Basically, when you use the name of Jesus demons are leaving.  Then another train of thought is the Word of God is Jesus.  In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us as many other scriptures validate that Jesus is the Word of God.  And so sometimes we can just think on the Word of God and it causes the enemy to leave; so that’s what it means to rebuke the enemy.  But back on this percentage where Jesus told me when these demons were in my bedroom and it was like I knew without a shadow of doubt that I would die because of the horrible sounds that these demons were making and it was entering into my mind, entering into my life and they wouldn’t leave.  And the Lord told me that, He says I want you to know that, you know that demons understand if there’s 1% of you that don’t mind them being there that they can stay.  And how true is that with every human being.

Sid:  Yeah, yes no sensible Christian would want a demon to stay, but give me an example of how through really lack of knowledge they let a demon stay.

Mel:  Absolutely, but just in everyday life that we are all tempted and say for instance that a person has a desires for alcohol that, if they don’t totally make up their mind 100% that I’m not going to have anything to do with this, if there’s 1% still there then that knawels at them.  What is that?  That’s a demon and so the only way that we can get rid of these things, if you want to be free from any kind of a problem, a fault, which is demons then you will have to be 100%.  That’s the reason why the Lord said in Jeremiah chapter twenty-nine, was it in verse 13 I think He says when you will call on me with your whole heart and if we have 1% of our life that doesn’t mind this temptation being in our life, it stays.  Am I not right Sid?

Sid:  You’re absolutely correct and that was the thing that you drove home so much in the book.

Mel:  And I think if they’ll get a hold of the book it will really help them go into greater depths and do more than we could possibly do on the radio without spending hours and hours.

Sid:  What about something like, which is really big with the internet and in every home and that’s pornography.  Use an example of pornography.  

Mel:  It’s the same thing, that if we don’t, if human beings don’t make it up in their mind that 100% I’m not going to have anything to do with that, that temptation will be there.  They’ve got to somehow, if they have to get rid of the internet, even Jesus said it’s much better to enter into Heaven than to have one arm and in other words to have both of your arms and go to heaven, it is better to lose an arm.  That is the reason it says if your eye offends you, pluck it out; it’s better to have…to go to Heaven with no eyes then to have both eyes and go to hell.  And so sometimes I think that we have to put our self in positions to where that we don’t have those temptations.  And so if we can’t handle the internet, if we can’t handle a computer, get rid of it it’s better than having a computer and going to hell.

Sid:  Now, what about something as subtle as spending three or four hours every night watching television.  Maybe good things sports, news, but even when you watch these quote good things sports, news things slip in.  Is there a danger there?  What’s your opinion?

Mel:  In my book I talk about one particular chapter is the not so obvious manifestation of Satan that it’s the little foxes that spoil the vines.  The Bible teaches us that and sometimes people they think, well these things are really not significant and I can still do them.  And I think that one of the lies the devil and his kingdom promote is, oh you can still do this and be a Christian.  You can still have jealousy, un-forgiveness, gossip, ideal words, you can have rebellion and you can have stubbornness and you can still have some of these things and maybe even lust.  You can have these things and still be a Christian and you know that’s true.  You can drink, you can smoke, you can do all these things and still be a Christian, but you can’t be everything that God wants you to be.  And the Lord showed me one particular time, in fact I’ve seen this many times, I’ve seen it with ministries, I’ve seen it with people that they could not be everything that God wanted them to be, they couldn’t have everything that God wanted them to have because the them holding on to this, I’m going to call it they’re pet demon, because it’s with them all the time.  And maybe that is being a little foolish using that word, but he’s with them all the time.  First Samuel 15:23 the Bible says, “Rebellion is equal to witchcraft, stubbornness is equal to idolatry.  And so the Lord has shown me and I remember one particular time this person that was involved in ministry, and I saw in the spirit there was a spirit wrapped around their ankle, and the Lord told me, He said that this is the illustration I’m giving you for this person.  It’s like I’ve ordained them, again this is an illustration “I’ve ordained them to be the best track runner in the world.  But because of the fact that they had this weight around their ankle not only can they not run as fast as they would like to run, but they’re off balance.  And so not only are they not the best, but they’re the worst.  And so these un-obvious demonic forces that come against us that we need to understand that they’re hindering us from having everything God wants us to have and from being everything God wants us to be. 

Sid:  Mel, you talk a lot about words, but there was one statement I picked up that would have been worth the book, just for this statement and that is you said “Give people words that they don’t deserve by operating in the same grace that God gave you with other people.”

Mel:  Absolutely, again that’s walking in God’s unconditional love, 1^st John 4:8 and verse 16; the Bible says that God is love and so when we start, you know we can talk about scriptural things and quote verses and so forth and that makes us sound spiritual, it makes us sound godly but when we walk in God’s love, that makes us like God.

Sid:  You know when I was in Israel I saw a street preacher and he was talking with such anger that he’d make me a non-Christian if I listened to him long enough.  Could that have been a demonic spirit even though he was saying good things?

Mel:  What’d Jesus say?  He says the traditions of man have made my power of non-affect and I’ve seen that many times in church circles where people are involved in religious traditions and usually when they have that, when they are being motivated by those sort of spirits, they are very evil people.  The same kind of people that hung Jesus on the cross, they were people that were bound in religion and not bound in the true things of God.

Sid:  Opps our time is slipping away.

Sid:  We want everyone everywhere to know how great our God is.  We want everyone everywhere to be under the blood of the Messiah.  And be righteous and have intimacy with God and the Messiah’s name in Hebrew, Yeshua and in English, Jesus.  My guest, Joel Richardson takes a subject that most Christians will readily admit they don’t understand the end times, they don’t understand the book of Revelation and so they put the whole thing on a shelf.  But my guest has been raised up by God to make the complex mysteries simple and Joel Richardson because tied in with the end times is the religion of Islam, because there have been numerous death threats and I can’t even tell people where you live.  Is that correct?

Joel:   Yeah, I’m okay with the Midwest, but beyond that people ask me where I am I say I’m in my secret bunker.

Sid:  Okay, let’s get right to the meat because I am fascinated with the information you have on our president, on our former presidents, on especially Jimmy Carter, but let’s get to something even more important than that…Tell me a bit, because I’ve never heard of this before this treaty that throughout Muslim history shows a pattern of what went on but will go on if the United State.  And you know I can’t understand how you can know this and our state department and our administration doesn’t know this, because if they knew what you are about ready to state publically on the air, they would never be trying to orchestrate peace agreements with the Palestinians in Israel, never, never, never.  So tell me a bit about this treaty.

Joel:  Sure.  Well the treaty that you mentioned is called the treaty of Whotheybe-a.

Sid:  I’m glad you said it and not me. Ha ha Say it again.

Joel:  I’m not a fluent Arabic speaker, buts that’s a fairly good pronunciation, the treaty of  Whotheybe-a.  And really what I often say is that if you want to have a basic understanding of Middle Eastern politics and the Palestine issue, you have to understand the treaty of  Whotheybe-a and its role in Islamic history.  Now unfortunately the present administration, Obama administration has said that the present issue in the world with terrorism is not related to Islam it is merely oh, you know a reaction against imperialism and all these different sort of things.  But again, unless we get into Islamic theology, the religious doctrines of Islam we’re going to miss this basic fact and it’s effect on the Middle East and not only middles eastern politics but biblical prophecy.  So as the story goes, Mohammed again the founder of Islam, I would say the false prophet and the founder of Islam, he had been kicked out of Mecca and he and his very small band of Muslim followers had moved to a nearby city of Yathreebe but now a days if called Medina and Mecca was the religious capital of the region and every year the surrounding pagans would all make pilgrimage to Mecca to worship their various gods at Secomba that’s the cube in the middle of Mecca and so Mohammed told his…

Sid:  Excuse me, what do you mean the cube in the middle of Mecca?

Joel:  Well, the Koba is the shrine and the Koba in Arabic, simply means the cube.  So it’s a black cube that is a building and that is literally the shrine that throughout the earth everyday; you know 1.7 billion Muslims bow five times a day toward Mecca and they pray toward the Koba and that this shrine that sits in the middle of the haroma, al cherif that’s what they call the noble sanctuary in the middle of Mecca.  And it use to be during the time of Mohammad it was filled with idols, so this was a shrine that was pre-existent to the religion of Islam.  But so Mohammad told his small band, roughly a thousand people that they were going to make pilgrimage that year and so they were trying to fulfill or self fulfill this prophecy; and as they were approaching Mecca they came to a place called the spring of Whotheybe-a.  Now the most powerful tribe of the region were the Corachees and so the corachees stopped Mohammed and his men at the spring and really kind of abused Mohammed in front of his men; mocked him quite a bit and he said, that the Corachees you are not going to make pilgrimage absolutely not.  They said, but we will  make a treaty with you, and this treaty has come down in Islamic history as the treaty Whotheybe-a.  Now what they said is they said “From now on if any of your men want to leave Islam you have to let them go, but any of our people want to convert to your group and become Muslims you have to send them back.  So it was clearly a treaty slanted against Mohammad and they said for the next ten years we will have a cease fire; you will not attack us, we will not attack you; next year we will let you come back and make pilgrimage.  So the next day all of Mohammed men were really upset because, of course he was looking like a false prophet.  But what Mohammed did was he did what all false prophets do, is when he misses the target he walks over to his arrow and paints a new target around the arrow and says hey look, bull’s eye.  And so what he said was he said that that night, Allah had given him a revelation and he said that this was a great victory because what he realized was the most powerful tribe in the region had agreed not to attack them.  And the end result was over the next two years Mohammed began attacking a series of Jewish villages plundering and raiding and pillaging and massacring these villages.  And what he told the people is that if you will join in these raids from now on, Allah has revealed it, that if you join the raid you get your percentage of the plunder and the booty and the women and slaves and so forth within two years as Mohammed became a pirate of the desert he went from a thousand men to roughly ten thousand.  Well now, Mohammed the Muslims were larger than the Creakiest; he broke the treaty of Whotheybe-a; he came and invaded Mecca and concurred the Okarche’s and he was now the undisputed leader of the inter region.  So now what we need to realize is that Muslims today believe that Mohammed is the perfect man and he is a perfect example for all Muslims to follow.  So today Muslim politicians and leaders they look to the example of making a treaty when you are weak in order to gain strength, in order to reload, in order to gain strategic dominance over your opponents.  They look to that as an example.

Sid:  Use a modern day example of say maybe, Yasser Arafat.  How did he use that treaty? 

Joel:  Sure, well this is going back to the ‘80s and Arafat had made a significant treaty with Israel, many from the Israeli left were very excited about this and they were talking about peace and moving toward peace and so forth.  Well, then what happened, Arafat was speaking before a group in South Africa and he was speaking in Arabic and to the people of Arabic he said, listen, he said as far as I’m concerned this treaty is just like the treaty that Mohammed himself engaged in with the Corachees and he said this is no more, and no less than the treaty Whotheybe-a and we will use this treaty in our onward march to Jerusalem.  Well, when the left from Israel heard this they realized what Arafat didn’t know was that someone was recording this speech and when it was translated he was caught.  He was caught openly admitting that he had not literally entered into any desire for peace.

Sid:  Alright, fast forward President Obama and the State of Israel and the Palestinians what is going on with the Palestinians say we want a small portion of the land for ourselves?  Do you believe that for one minute?

Joel:  Right, they call it the two state solution and this is something that has been pushed really from the Bush administration; the Clinton everyone has failed; Obama is picking up the baton and he’s going for the two state solution and he’s pushing the Israeli government to go for the same thing; now that Netanyahu is open to discussing the such a thing.  The bottom line is that within the very charter of Hamas and all of the various political leaders, even on the Palestinian side of the west bank, they all have a history of being openly stating the fact that they want to see the annihilation of the State of Israel.  So while they may enter into a treaty in order to get concession, in order to see Israel give concessions and come their way.  Their ultimate goal, is always to see the destruction of Israel.

Sid:  But, wait a second, the US will back Israel up so they’ll never be able to get more than just the Palestinian state.  Ought o, maybe that is why our military is being weaken and they know that.

Joel:  You know, absolutely you know there is no question that those in Israel on the right that refuse to even discuss a two state solution, who are determined to be strong to make Israel’s military strong in order to rightfully defend themselves they are on the position of right, they are, history has borne out the fact that, when you have a nation of the people…

Sid:  But listen, our state department knows what you’re saying, why are they still proceeding forward?  Our administration knows…oops were out of time.

SID: Gary Wood was in an auto accident, a horrific one. He died and he had the most amazing guided tour of Heaven. He saw the body parts room and sadly, there were so many unclaimed gifts. Let’s take a look at what happened on December 23rd, 1966 when Gary had that accident.

GARY: Well I was driving home and my little sister was in the car with me and we were just anticipating spending Christmas with our family, and she was singing “Silent Night, Holy Night.” And I was just listening to her beautiful soprano voice, when all of a sudden she let out a blood-curdling scream. And I turned to see what was the matter, and came to the back of a 10-ton truck that was illegally parked on the edge of the highway that evening. It was in the midst of, the town we were in was in the midst of a big oil field, but it was saturated it in the oil. She saw it, the reflection in the bumper and attempted to warn me, but it was too late. It’s just, Sid, like crashing into a brick wall, and our car just crushed like an accordion. I remember just rising up out of my body. Dying was just very painless. At first, I experienced pain. There was like an explosion in my nose. It was sharp, searing pain across the lower portion of my facial anatomy. And then I was just really relieved of all pain. It was just like taking your clothes off and discarding them, and laying them off side. And I was caught up in a real massive swirling, funnel-shaped cloud, and a real bright light, not as bright as the studio lights here, but just a very tranquil light that engulfed me. And I began to rise upward and I began to walk up a pathway, much like kind of one those modern airports where you walk and the walkway moves quickly. And suddenly I heard singing. Now I was a music major at the time of the accident at college. When I was in high school I had won several awards for singing.

SID: So unlike me, you know when there’s good singing or just average singing.

GARY: Absolutely, yes. And this is the most stupendous singing I’ve ever heard in my life. The angels of Heaven were singing, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive glory and power. Wisdom and dominion be given unto thee forever, O Lord. Amen and amen.” And Sid, you never heard anything until you’ve heard trillions and billions of angelic beings as they began to worship and magnify God.

SID: Have you heard anything on Earth close to that?

GARY: Absolutely not. Sometimes we’ll get into an atmosphere in some areas of churches that I go to where people begin to worship, but never at the magnitude that I heard when I was there in Glory. I remember then that this cloud just opened up and I saw this gigantic golden satellite suspended in space. You know Sid, the most stupendous thought that can ever occupy the mind of man is Heaven and how to get there. And thank God, that we’re left to grope in darkness, but God has given us His word as a lamp unto our feet to light our path. And so, I remember looking at the foundation of this city. It was solid jasper. That’s diamonds. And I remember each foundation, 12 of them, were different foundational stones, and I remember looking at the names of the 12 apostles inscribed on those 12 stones.

SID: That sounds like scripture to me.

GARY: Exactly. It’s in the Book of Revelation. And then I saw the gates of solid pearl. The Bible gives us the dimensions of the city and a scientist worked with me in Florida, and here’s the dimensions. It’s 2.7 cubic billion miles in its circumference. It’s 780,000 stories high and there’s enough room to comfortably accommodate 100,000 million people. That’s more people—

SID: 100,000 million people.

GARY: That have ever lived on Planet Earth at any one time. But Jesus said it like this, “In my Father’s house are man mansions. If it were not so I told you so. I go to prepare a place for you.”

SID: I don’t want to get too far, but did you see your mansion?

GARY: I saw my mansion Sid.

SID: What did it look like?

GARY: Well it looked a southern colonial home. I saw a fence and I saw the beautiful marble columns. I walked into my mansion. I was taken on a tour of Heaven literally by a friend of mine who had died, that you talked about.

SID: This was the guy that was decapitated?

GARY: Decapitated. I recognized him immediately.

SID: Without a head?

GARY: Well I knew him now and he had his head and he was exactly like I remembered him up on the earth.

SID: That was nice for God to send him to welcome you.

GARY: Exactly. I learned that when you go to Heaven during this transition God has a special person assigned to you. It may be your mother. It may be a loved one that’s departed. But God has someone to acclimate you so to speak and take you on tour.

SID: Did you hug him when you saw him?

GARY: I hugged him and we embraced, and we just shared for a while. And he said, “There’s many things that I need to share with you.” And he began to take me on this tour. I went to my mansion and I went in, and there were three buckets of paint sitting in what looked like a living room area. Well my friend dipped his hand, threw it against the wall and a beautiful floral arrangement appeared. Now if you really get to know me, my nature, I picked up the whole bucket and flung it against the wall, and the whole room was saturated with this smell. Sid, it was like roses and a fragrance. And then he told me, Sid, it’s not ready for you to occupy. He said, “You’ve got to go.” And so that’s when I went out. I walked on a street that was pure solid gold. It was transparent. You could see all the way through it.

SID: Gold is transparent?

GARY: Gold is transparent. You go to a jeweler and they will tell you that there’s an impurity in gold, and when that impurity is removed gold is not yellow.

SID: Gary, there is something that fascinates me so much. You went to the library. Tell me about that.

GARY: Yes. There were all kinds of volumes of books in there. And when someone receives Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and savior here upon the earth an angel will take a cloth and just wipe out all the transgressions and all the deeds that a person had done in their life, and then their name is written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

SID: Did you actually see this happen while you were there?

GARY: I actually saw it happen. I saw a man on the earth receive Jesus. I saw the angel receive the report that wiped out the transgressions of his life.

SID: That’s got to be so real to you.

GARY: It was very real because I saw my name written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. I saw books with prayer requests in them, spiritual growth, you know, that we have here on the earth, and I saw—

SID: So they’re paying attention to whether we are growing or whether we’re just watching soap operas.

GARY: Absolutely, and the souls that we have won.

SID: Hello. Sid Roth here with Charles Vance. How do you prosper in bad times? Most people that aren’t even prophets know that the United States of America and thereby we’re not a nation unto ourselves, the whole world is crumbling financially, especially going to happen next year. So Charles, you’ve been telling me some statistics here about what’s going on with the U.S. economy.

CHARLES: If you put your trust in the U.S. government, the Federal Reserve Bank you’d be probably a very frightened person right now. Our U.S. government owes over $13 trillion

SID: You know what? I cannot even imagine 13 trillion.

CHARLES: Let me help you with the number.

SID: Okay.

CHARLES: If you try to count 1-1000, 2-1000 and you counted to 13 trillion it would take you almost 400,000 years to count that far. That’s providing you couldn’t sleep, 24 hours a day. It’s staggering. Four billion dollars per day is being added to that debt. I don’t think we can comprehend that. 225 of the richest people in the world only have $1 billion, or $1 trillion, I’m sorry, the 225 richest people in the world. We are just out of control. Our government is completely out of control. Nobody is doing anything to stop the spending. They just voted, I’m sure you’re well aware of, just a few months back to increase another $2 trillion. These people are business people. They’re intelligent people business-wise. I’m convinced that there’s something going on behind the scenes.

SID: How long can a country use Monopoly money?

CHARLES: You got me. And they just keep borrowing it, and they’re borrowing it from the Federal Reserve Bank. There’s not even enough gold to cover it in the world. There’s not enough gold in existence that we know of. I mean, I’m sure probably in the earth somewhere, to cover the debt of the United States. We’re the most in-debt nation in the world.

SID: Okay. We’re the most in-debt nation in the world. But worse than that, how about if you live in the United States like Charles and I do, but Charles is in the most poverty-stricken state in the United States, West Virginia. So what are you gonna do, leave America? I mean, are you fearful?

CHARLES: I’m not fearful. Do you know when money moves it doesn’t, or I should say probably material things, they just shift hands. Science has proven that you can’t destroy matter. It just moves from one place or it moves forms, changes forms. It moves from one person to the other. You know, when Israel left out of 430 years of bondage to Egypt–

SID: As slaves.

CHARLES: As slaves, overnight there was a wealth transfer that took place. They took with them the silver and the gold. And the Egyptians were glad to see them go because they had just gone through some of the most horrific times. The money wasn’t gone. The goods weren’t gone. They just changed hands. And there was a shift, I’ve heard people call this a wealth transfer, and sometimes I’m a little reluctant to use that terminology because of preconceived notions. But there is a wealth transfer that is taking place in the world right now.

SID: Are you going to be involved in this wealth transfer?

CHARLES: I believe everybody is going to be involved in it. The unfortunate thing is some people are gonna be involved in losing wealth, and it’s going to be transferred from one person. And Sid, this might be a shock to some people, but I believe that there’s going to be some great well meaning Christian folks that will lose wealth in its transfer to people that God calls, that Jesus actually called good and faithful servants.

SID: But Charles, that’s good for you, but I’m just curious. You have a congregation. When you teach this in your congregation in the most poverty-ridden state in the United States, what’s happened to people in just your congregation?

CHARLES: We’ve had several millionaires, either five or six millionaires in the last few years that have grown up, if you will, in our church, because, and obviously we’re not teaching just about the downside of the economy. But there are actually, there’s biblical steps that we walk through to experience to position ourselves for a wealth transfer coming to us.

SID: Is there a way to position ourselves for this FOG I was talking about, this favor of God? Is

there really a way that we can do this?

CHARLES: Absolutely there is.

SID: So knowing what’s about ready to happen, if we position ourselves right now, now I’m being really simplistic, if we position ourselves right now according to spiritual truths, when this economic crash happens in America money will still be there. Will this money come to us?

CHARLES: If we position ourselves. It’s coming to me already. You know, I heard a news report probably a month and a half or so ago that said in the next 12 months, which means probably within the next year or so that there is going to be over a million new foreclosures in America, a million people losing homes. I just bought three homes this year in addition to what I already own, and I bought them for pennies on the dollar.

SID: You know, I really believe God has raised Charles up for such a time as this, and it’s not just real estate. If you position yourself, the favor of God, He’ll give you ideas. I want to find out how to position ourselves. Be right back after this word.