Sid: I’ve got to tell you something Mishpochah my guest is Dr. David Remedious and he’s a vascular surgeon like none you’ve ever heard of because he prays for his patients and many times will have a vision actually how to do the surgery.  Sometimes even the organ that he’s cut out God gives the person back their organ.  But there is river… river isn’t even the right word.  There is a presence of God that is flowing through the airwaves right now that David can you feel; is this a healing anointing that I’m sensing.

David:  Yes Sid absolutely absolutely.

Sid: That’s what I would have felt.

David:  So strong.

Sid: It’s almost like it’s I’ll call it a gentle river; it’s a gentle velvety river of healing anointing.  David I believe that if you will pray for people right now and they would release their faith they’re going to go into this river. This gentle river of healing anointing just like in Ezekiel where it talks about where ever the river goes there is life.  And they will experience the life; not just life but the life of God in specific areas of their body.  Will you pray for them David?

David:  I’d be honored.  Heavenly Father I come to you in the name of Yeshua, Jesus the Messiah.  That You by Your strips they were healed.  You came to heal all manner of sickness and diseases. And Lord there is nothing too difficult for you.  Lord I pray for those that have incurable conditions in their bodies; fibromyalgia, AIDS, tumors that have   metastasized.  Lord God You are our healer so right now You sent out Your Word and You healed them Lore.  I thank You Lord; there is now divine healing flowing through these airways. And there someone that is literally lying in an apartment in your bedroom and you literally have given up on life; you’ve given up on yourself.  And I’m just here to tell you Mam that God is right now visiting you.  There is literally a visitation and he’s touching your abdomen on the lower parts in the female organs.  And God is restoring and healing and taking all these caked up insides that you have.  And God is restoring you and making you a new you.  You’ve lost so much weight; you’ve lost about 25 pounds in the past 4 weeks and I believe right now; today begins your healing.  So I just thank You Lord for everyone that’s under the sound of our voices in Jesus Name. Thank You.

Sid: And while He was praying I heard two words; there is someone whose wrist is being healed right now.  And someone whose back has (Laughing) not being healed it’s already been healed in Jesus Name.  And I hear a popping in someone’s ear; someone’s ear has opened in Jesus Name.  Now on yesterday’s…we’re going to get people upset David if we don’t go right back to what we were sharing on yesterday’s program.  This vascular surgeon Dr. David Remedious is in the midst of surgery; he opens some up and finds out that her gallbladder had gangrene and ; was blocking her colon.  And there’s a standard procedure, but the Holy Spirit says “Trust Me I want you to do a different procedure.  If there were 100 doctors not one of them would have done that different procedure.  David what happened next?

David:  Well, I went ahead and performed; I took out the tumor and I took out the gallbladder of course; labatched everything inside real well.  And I put the bile back together and again this was something that I did with trepidation.  I went ahead and closed the skin because I knew, that I knew, I know His voice.  And of course I sent her to the recovery room; spoke with her husband.  And then that’s when for me it really began where I had to walk out what I heard.  Obviously what if she gets septic and that is the most and it doesn’t hold up and obviously in my mind medical mind I was literally I have to be honest I was struggling with this.  I said “Lord I know what you said and I trust you.”  There comes a point in our lives when we have to trust that we heard and we have to trust God, trust God.  It was amazing on the third day she went home; within 3 days she was home eating a regular diet having normal bowel movements.

Sid: But wait a second now; the normal procedure is she has a bag and how long does she stay in the hospital normally?

David:  Normally the best or the most severe circumstance we’re talking about it’s probably about a week at least.  A week or 10 days minimum.  Well about the third day she was home eating a regular diet and having normal bowel movements.  That just does not happen.

Sid: Normal bowel movements?

David:  Correct; yes.

Sid:  And your saying that this does not happen.

David: No Sir, no. (Laughing) after that kind of procedure. No Sir; I’ve never seen that before.

Sid: Well, something else happened to her; it’s got to do with her colon; how much of her colon did you remove? 

David: Oh about 3 feet or so.

Sid: Out of curiosity do colons regenerate or grow back?

David:  No, no.

Sid: So it’s medically impossible to have a new colon.

David: Correct.

Sid: What happened to her?

David:  Well, I took it out and then of course I do a follow up colonoscopy a year later and she had a normal size colon. We took the whole colonoscope all the way and everything. It didn’t look like she even had surgery inside.  Couldn’t even find the anastomosis; went all the way.

Sid: Again medically is there one out of a 1000 explanations medically.

David:  No Sir that don’t happen; none.

Sid: When you see God operate like that, excuse the pun, what goes on with you?

David:  Well, this is totally outside of the…

Sid: It’s outrageous David.  (Laughing)

David:   (Laughing) With all due respect Lord yeah, yeah yes I don’t know what word to use.

Sid: You know what I have Dee Sapp on the telephone right now.  I want to see what happened from her perspective.  Dee you’re having very serious surgery; it could cost you your life; you’re on the operating table your out.  What, if anything, is going on with you during the surgery?

Dee:  During the surgery time I actually was knocked out the evening before on a Saturday evening and was awakened Sunday night after the surgery was completed. So everything that I saw really was in a Spirit realm looking over my body up above my body looking into my body.  And actually what I saw was children as angels jumping up and down rolling around in my stomach area laughing.  A very warm presence; very much a feeling of love.  And they literally spoke to me and said “I could be at peace; all is well and then they left my body.”

Sid: At the same time David you had prayed for angelic help and you felt you were getting it am I right?

David:  Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

Sid: So she sees the angels in a spirit realm.  You feel them; you’re being instructed.  You know I interviewed an individual recently that had his eyes opened to the spirit realm and there were believers dancing and worshiping God and there were angels right behind those that were dancing and worshiping God the same way.  It’s almost like the angel does the same thing that we’re doing or maybe it’s assisting us to do it the way that’s pleasing God.  Did you feel that there was a supernatural gifting coming over you when you were operating on Dee?

David:  Oh there’s no doubt about it; it’s wonderful and at the same time from a medical perspective you know how do you fit the supernatural thing into the natural.  There is no fitting in this; it’s just supernatural it’s a God thing.

Sid: So Dee, when you woke up you were really at peace.

Dee:  Oh absolutely I’m not famous for not being a nonworrier I normally ask a 1000 questions and I walk in the presence of the Lord for possibly 8 months from that encounter.  That was a divine time really; everything was peaceful; the function of my life; the debts.  It was amazing.

Sid: But look at what could have happened.  You could have left that place with a bag that you’d have to using… I mean your whole life; would have changed. God is a good God.

Dee:  He is extremely good.

Sid: So when did you find out that God did even more than you asked for?

Dee: In December of ’96 a year later I was to have colonoscopy to determine the status of the legions and all that.  And at that point Dr. Remedious did that colonoscopy and we were told that I had as much colon now as I had before the surgery was ever completed.  They used the entire scope and that should not have been the case for him removing over half of my colon.

Sid: So has this been classified as a miracle from a medical perspective?

David:  Absolutely; absolutely.

Sid: Out of curiosity Dee do you share your testimony much and I’m wondering if people get healed when they hear what happened?

Dee:  I do share it if God opens the door; in fact I just got an invitation from Texas in the Houston area just got off the phone with them.  And yes we have seen healings; God uses my husband also even before I was healed; God used him in discernment of knowing and praying for individuals.  And they were healed; and it’s awesome and it’s a great privilege and it’s definitely… to stand there and to say “I know God in a creative miracle format.” is unbelievable to me still.

Sid: Well, Dee and David we’re out of time right now.

Sid: We want everyone to understand there’s a heresy that is sweeping Christianity and like all heresy’s it’s got a lot of good, but it has enough arsenic to cost your eternal life.   I have Dr. Michael Brown in the studio. Dr. Brown has a PhD in Semitic Languages.  He speaks reads or writes at least a dozen languages. He’s studied the Bible in its original languages for decades. I’ve asked him and he’s put together one of the finest defining books on this movement that’s sweeping Christianity called Hyper-Grace. Give me a few ideas Dr. Brown on what some of these teachers are saying.

Michael:  Of course Sid in my book I document in detail exactly what’s being said.  I affirm the truth of the grace message that some of these men are teaching and preaching and then point out the error. Here are some of the errors.  One is the idea that God has already pronounced forgiven all of our future sins.  Not that Jesus paid for them, we all agree with that, but that we have already been pronounced forgiven in advance of our future sins. Therefore you never confess your sin to God because God’s already forgiven it.

Sid: So what would happen if I said “But you’re supposed to repent when you sin to a hyper grace teacher?”

Michael:  Awe Sid, “Your under a legalistic way of thinking, your into behavior modification and sin management. Repent just means I agree with God, I agree that I’m righteous that’s all repent means.”  Of course it’s not what repents means and I detail that in the book with scripture and with dictionaries but that would be the response.  “Repent just means come into agreement with God; change your mind about what you’re thinking you’re righteous.”  Now we are saints, God calls us saints. And we’re now called to live like saints.  What hyper-grace people would say is “We have already been completely sanctified; we are already completely totally perfectly holy in God’s sight.  Every day God is thrilled with us singing our praises no matter what sin I commit God doesn’t see it because He is already said “I’ll remember your sin no more, therefore the Holy Spirit will never convict me of sin because God doesn’t see the sin and He’s pronounced it forgiven.

Sid: And the teaching like that is a in my opinion a license to sin.  A license to sin will result in hardness of heart; hardness of heart will result in someone being demonized and either going into something totally counterfeit in thinking or being totally deceived.  Well that’s what someone demonized is totally deceived.  I’m concerned where it’s headed. Is it true that some of them are saying “There is no hell, there is no devil.”  I mean “How far are they going to go?”

Michael:  Yeah, some say of course there is a devil but that the devil might ultimately be saved; are there any limits to God’s grace?  Some are saying that if there is a hell it’s only temporary that everybody will ultimately make it in; that’s true grace.  Some are saying this “I don’t sin.”   You say “No, no, no you just admitted to me that sometimes you’ll be guilty of anger.  “No, no, no that’s not me.”  My spirit is perfect that’s just my flesh sinning and it’s not really me.”

Sid: (Laughing)

Michael:  And Sid it reminds me of…

Sid: I don’t understand how anyone that knows the word could accept these things.

Michael:  Because what happens is you’ll take a truth alright, and then you’ll take it to its logical extreme outside of the rest of scriptural truth.  If Jesus already died for my sins then I’m already forgiven and He paid the full price; if I’m not under grace, if it’s not under works; if it’s not matter of law and so on and so forth therefore… so what they do is they breakaway from a ton of other scripture.  Often they break away from the context itself. Do you want to know how far it goes Sid? You say “But Jesus said in the Lord’s prayer “Forgive us as we forgive others.”  No, no, Jesus was teaching Jews under the Old Covenant.

Sid:  Oh, no but no one could believe that; no one with half of a brain could believe that Mike!

Michael:  Sid, there are sincere people out there.  I’ve dialogued with them; I’ve interacted with them.  And they say “The Sermon on the mount was for Jews under the law.” Everything that Jesus taught up until He died on the cross was Old Covenant. The New Covenant didn’t start so they are… Sid they are robbing from us from the church the precious words of Jesus.  John 14 Jesus told the disciples the Holy Spirit would bring to remembrance what He said. Matthew 28 the great commission is to make disciples by teaching them everything Jesus taught.  John 15 “If you abide in Me and My words abide in you.” All these things about the words of Jesus from the early church they prized; they hung on every word.  That’s by the gospel authors spent years, decades compiling putting things together before the published this. Now were we being told that it doesn’t apply.  So take up your cross; follow Jesus and “No, no, no that doesn’t apply to us anymore.”

Sid: If I was a dogmatic hyper-grace teacher, which praise God I’m not, and you extended an invitation for me because Mike has his own radio show that’s nationally syndicated and it’s called “The line of fire.”  And I would want to be on your show; have you approached them?

Michael:  I have approached a number of different teachers…

Sid: Well, if they’re so sure that they’re right why wouldn’t they want to be to help you?

Michael: Well, I’ve said “Look, let’s discuss this; I’m not a nasty person; I’m not mean spirited.”  Look you’ve seen me debate Rabbi’s and others and I’ll give them a shot.  Look Sid I constantly take invitations to go on secular radio to go on hostile territory.  If hyper-grace university and hyper-grace city and hyper-grace church said “Mike we’d like you to come on and debate our 10 top people.”  Tell me when, tell me where and I’d be there in heartbeat because we can’t be afraid of the truth.

Sid: So why… will they debate their issues?  Or do they just want to expound on the air?

Michael:  Thus far, no.  Now some of them just are not debtors; they’re gentle kind of people and “Look man I don’t want to get into an argument.  You have your view; I bless you.”

Sid: The top people on TV.

Michael:  I can’t; well some will just not respond to invitations for whatever reason; even though we’ve got quite a nice platform with our radio show.

Sid: Okay.

Michael:  But others Sid they just don’t like to be challenged. 

Sid: Okay, I will challenge top ones.  I’ll make my TV Show available to you if you will debate Dr. Brown on something that you’re basing your entire reputation on.  Alright let’s get back to your book the book is called “Hyper-Grace Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Message.”  Mike you talk about a word that a lot of Christians don’t understand “Sanctification, sanctified.”  What does that mean?

Michael:  Yeah, I have a whole chapter called “Sanctified or not.”  Sanctified simply means set apart to God as holy; that’s all it means.  Sanctified is set apart to God as holy. Here’s what hyper-grace teachers get right and here what they get wrong.  Scripture plainly says “We have already been sanctified.”  In other words, the moment we get saved even when we still have all kinds of baggage and junk.  Look I quite shooting heroine December 17^th of ’71 but I was not a perfectly saintly individual at that moment, and I’ve been growing in the Lord.

Sid: Alright but can’t they separate and say “That’s the positional thing?” But we’re growing in…

Michael:  Ah, alright but we would say there’s 3 phrases to sanctification.  We’ve already been set apart to God as holy; we are already sanctified.  We are being sanctified we are growing in grace and conduct and in the future we’ll be ultimately perfectly sanctified with the resurrection.  They reject that. They say “It is all in the past.”  In other words they take what theologians call positional sanctification that’s where we stand positionally in Jesus. We’re seated in heavenly places positionally but we’re still walking here on the earth right.  We’ve already been declared holy but we’re being made holy.  We’re pursing holiness.  They say “No, no, no.”  They reject sanctification as a process, they reject sanctification in an ongoing way.  That’s one of the biggest errors. If I have already been set apart as perfectly holy and God sees me as perfectly holy, therefore I don’t sin and I’m not accountable for my sins or my sins are not part of who I really am because my spirit is perfect; that’s just flesh doing these things. It’s one of their fundamental errors so I unpack it. Yes, there are verses that say that we have already been sanctified.  But then Paul writes in 1^st Thessalonians 4 and says “This is the will of God your sanctified.” Guys don’t sleep around with someone else wife; control your body; be holy.” And if you despise this you don’t despise man but God who gives us His Holy Spirit.  Paul prays for the Thessalonians in 1^st Thessalonians 5:23 “That God would sanctify them holy.” And 2^nd Corinthians 7:1 Paul says “Having these promises these wonderful promises from God that we have been declared as children and the temple of the Spirit.”  He says “Now having had these promises let us perfect holiness.”  So because we have been set apart as holy, that’s why we have been called saints in the New Testament. God says “Live this out; it’s a process.” We grow that’s why we confess our sins it’s like getting our feet washed when they’re dirty we have already been bathed from head to toe but as we walk the roads of this world our feet get dirty.  Ongoing cleansing and we grow and one day we’ll be perfectly sanctified.

Sid: Okay, that begs the question.  Is there anything that we have to do to please God?  Do we have to do works; what do they say; what does the Bible say?

Michael:  I’ve got quotes from hyper-grace teachers saying “We must get rid of this God pleasing mentality.  Sid, literal quotes.  “If you are working to please God you’re going to have a lifetime of futile effort.”  Now if they mean “I have to pray 8 hours today; I have to fast 28 days out of the month, I have to witness to 4 new people every day, or I’m not saved or I’m not pleasing God. Okay, let’s be delivered from that legalistic bondage; let’s be delivered from a mentality that I can only please God by trying harder.  However, Paul writes in Ephesians 5 find out what pleases the Lord he says “We’re always seeking to please the Lord.”  Sid, this is a relationship; one of the things that grieves me so much is things are taught in a non-relational way.  I asked one hyper-grace teacher I said “If you sinned against your wife and you lost your temper with her and you left the house and you come back a few hours later and you haven’t spoken a word.  When you get home would you say ‘Honey, I’m so abuse and in appropriate you’re a wonderful wife and godly woman.  What I did was ugly please forgive me.’”  And I said “Would you do that?”  And he said “Of course.”  Well I said “Wouldn’t you do that if you sinned against God?”  And he said “My wife is not God it’s completely different.” You know Sid; that’s just relationship; that’s just when you really love the Lord so much and you realize you grieved him and your heart says “Father I want to please you and I want to honor you.”

Sid: I’m sorry Mike we’re out of time.

Sid: My guest by way of telephone at his home in Lexington, South Carolina is William Morford he’s the translator what is rapidly becoming my favorite reading New Testament, it’s called “The Power New Testament” subtitle “Revealing Jewish Roots.” Because there are Hebrew Idioms to what Jesus was saying.  And then the way Bill you brought out the tenses as I read and it’s in modern English, the whole thing becomes maybe you should call it “The Alive New Testament.”

Bill:  (Laughing)

Sid: Rather than “The Power New Testament.” Why is it that the other Bibles don’t capture this?

Bill:   I certainly don’t understand it because when you take Greek this is the way you’re told that it should be translated.  But when the others translate it they leave out the extra punch that’s there in the Greek.

Sid: How did you first get attracted? I know how you got attracted to the Greek, but how did you even.  I mean the average Christian doesn’t know these idioms, these Hebrewisms. How did you understand this, how did you learn this?

Bill:  I went to a Rabbi… we moved to Lakeland, Florida just before I started before the Lord told me to get serious in translating.  And we moved there just to… because we felt that that’s where the Lord wanted us. We didn’t know anyone in Lakeland, but we felt that He put me in touch with a Messianic Rabbi so I could get Hebrew references that I needed.   After we got to Lakeland we found out that there was no Messianic Rabbi there, but there was Rabbi Eliezer Ben-Yehuda a Jewish Rabbi who was a great help.  Personally going through scripture with me and giving me reference books.

Sid: And for those that are tuning in for the first time this particular Rabbi’s grandfather was the single person that pioneered Hebrew to be a modern speaking language in Israel.  And actually came up with many of the words so you could not have found a better teacher Bill.

Bill:  Right, certainly not and what made him even better than his scholarship was his attitude and his helpfulness. And he feels that part of his call is to be a bridge between Christians and Jews.  So he was very helpful. We’ve became very good friends.  And we’ve been to their home for Pesach, or Passover, and for other feasts days it’s really wonderful.

Sid: Bill, I want you to teach some of the things that I’ve been gleaning from reading your “Power New Testament.”

Bill: Okay, let’s start at Acts 18 with the first verse that says “Paul going to Corinth after these things he left from Athens and went to Corinth and when he found a certain Jewish man name Aquila a native of Pontus who came recently from who came recently from Italy with Priscilla his wife, because of the order of Claudius to separate all the Jewish people from Rome, Paul came to them and because they were in the same trade he was staying with them and he was working.  For they all were prayer shawl makers by trade.  And he was discussing in the synagogue…

Sid: Wait a second, my Bible says “Tentmakers.”

Bill:  Well, they say that but that’s not right.  The word that’s translated tentmaker is “skenopoios” and it does not appear in any other Greek writing anywhere.  So whether it was commonly used by the Jewish people in those days or not whether Luke just made it up we don’t know.  But we do know that a man named Bauer who did the Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich Greek-English Lexicon this is over a hundred years ago. He wrote a whole column on that one word and concluded that he didn’t know what it was, but that it was something that required technical training.  The technical training that we know all three had was rabbinic training.  And that was required to make prayer shawl.

Sid: So you believe that Paul’s tent making, so to speak, was making tallits, prayer shawls.

Bill:  Absolutely.

Sid: By the way you have some fascinating information about the prayer shawl. For instance when the woman with the issue of blood reached out to touch the garment of Jesus, you don’t call it a garment do you. What do you call it?

Bill:  That’s the prayer shawl.

Sid: And why was that so important and you explain this in your footnotes.  “When she reached out to touch the fringes of the prayer shawl.

Bill:  Well the fringe, the tseetseet is the Hebrew word. The reason it was made is given in the 15 chapter of Numbers and it was made that all could look upon it and remember all the commandments and promises of God.  So that when she touched that she knew that on a holy man of God that that fringe represented all the commandments and all the promises for her, and those promises included her healing. For the Lord said “I am the Lord your healer.”  Way back in the wilderness he said that.

Sid: Now I just have a vision of someone putting the prayer shawl on that’s in dire need of being healed.  And when they grab hold of the fringes and I know that this is just a point of contact but there’s something so supernatural about the prayer shawl that when you grab hold of the fringes of the prayer shawl you’re grabbing hold of every promise in God’s word having to do with healing. That’s exactly what that woman with that issue of blood did.

Bill:  Absolutely, no question about it.

Sid: Okay, if you would teach further.

Bill:  Well there’s a another meaning to it; of course well, before I get to the next meaning, I want to say on the fringe the Greek work is consistent in using… in referring to the fringe.  It’s Kraspedon and it just means fringe, it never meant hem or anything like it.

Sid:  Well, where did we get hem from; rather than fringe? 

Bill: Who knows you’ll have to wait until you get to heaven and ask those that…

Sid: They did not… you know what it was the translators were great Greek scholars but they didn’t know their Jewish roots.  And let’s face it the New Testament was written for Jews in a Jewish nation by Jews.  I mean what do you expect give me a break you know.

Bill: (Laughing) Exactly. You’re right you know. And the other thing that I was going to get to in a different meaning that has been confirmed by using the Septuagint.  And that’s in 1^st Corinthians 11 getting down I want to read that whole paragraph.  But I’ll start with verse 14 “Does not nature teach you this that the man on the one hand has long hair it’s a disgrace to him.”  And of course that was the custom in the Roman Empire in the lst Century that men wore very short hair.  But on the other hand for a woman it is her glory.  Because the hair was given to her as an ornament in place of a prayer shawl.  And the word translated prayer shawl there is the same word that’s used in the Septuagint for prayer shawl in Deuteronomy 22:12.

Sid:  So you mean these woman that cut their hair to the point where you can barely see they have any hair today they’re not reflecting the prayer shawl.

Bill: (Laughing)

Sid: (Laughing) Is that what the word is saying?

Bill:  Yes.

Sid: I’m going to get into trouble. I better watch out.

Bill:  Exactly right well, woman wear prayer shawls today. And it’s a question of hair custom in the first century on that.  And I know that in conservative synagogues woman use prayer shawls.

Sid: And by the way I get questions all the time from woman that says “Is it acceptable for me to put on a prayer shawl and pray?”  And the answer is “You are free.”

Bill:  (Laughing)

Sid: You are a free person and if that’s going to enhance your worship of God and your prayer and your communion with God go for it.

Bill:  See the command is to put it on the corners of a square or a rectangular garment.  And the prayer shawl in the wilderness was their outer garment. And the 1^st Century Israel it was their outer garment that they still had and is more like a poncho with a whole cut in the middle.  In fact, the description of Jesus garment in John 19 that the soldiers cast lots for that fits the garment that was worn in the wilderness.  The poncho like garment and the fringes were placed on the corners.  And in fact a recent issue of Biblical Archeology Review had pictures taken in Jerusalem in the mid nineteenth century and there was several people in those pictures who were wearing garments that were not quite like the poncho but were very similar. And there’s no question that that’s what it was. And Rabbi Ben-Yehuda told me that a number of those garments dating back to roughly the 1^st century have been uncovered by modern archeology.  But again we are free. There is nothing in the commandment to put the fringes on the garment that says “Only men could wear those garments.”  It was just put the fringes on the garment and that garment described what the men were wearing at that time.

Sid: Bill just out of curiosity because you bring out these idioms that there is no way of understanding the Jewish roots of the faith. By you call it “The Power New Testament” because you bring out the tenses.  It becomes so alive. I mean I am so excited about this translation. What feedback are you getting not from someone like me that comes from a Jewish background but someone that’s never been taught these things when they read your “Power New Testament” for the first time, what do they say to you?

Bill:  We have a stack of letters people just saying how much it’s opened things up for them.  I got a letter from a pastor in Michigan just recently just said “Wow!”

Sid: We’re out of time right now Bill.

Sid: My guest by way of telephone is Pastor Charles Cowan he’s pastor of the 2000 member church in Nashville, Tennessee called Faith Is The Victory Church.  We’re interviewing him this week on his brand new book called “How to Deal With the Cares of Life.”  And before we went on the air Pastor Charles you started talking about the need for us to be in position and ready, explain.

Charles:  This is a crucial hour as we all know for the Body of Christ in the earth today. This is a time that the harvest that God is going to make a sweep across the world and through the nations of the world and bring the nations of the world into the Kingdom of God. Now how that affects every child of God is this is that every child of God has been given from God something that they are to supply to the Body of Christ that will aid in this end-time harvest and move of God.  So they have to be ready. I remember one time and talking about being ready that I pulled out a new Bible and my old one had you know had just about worn it out and I had all of the writings and things on the margins of my Bible like we do.  So I pulled out this new Bible and I drove up to Louisville, Kentucky my wife and I did my wife and I did. We went up there to be in a meeting with Brother Kenneth Hagin or to be in attendance at the meeting.  So when I got up there that day and walked in and Brother Hagin saw me I went up and I greeted him.  And he said to me “Well when you walked in here today into this meeting today and I saw you” and he said “The Spirit of God spoke to me and told me to have you teach in this afternoon’s service.”

Sid: Hm.

Charles: Well, I got a brand new Bible; I didn’t bring a note one and I don’t have anything written in the margins of this new Bible; in fact the pages are still stuck together.   

Sid: I’ve been in that position I know.

Charles:  And I said to him “Brother Hagin are you sure?” And he said “Yes, I’m sure.”  So we chatted a little bit and then I said to him again “Now Brother Hagin are you sure?”    And he said “Charles if I were not sure I would not have asked you.” So it was right then that I had to be ready to face what it was that he had asked me to do and had to be ready to do it.  Well you see that true in every area. Had I not been in prayer and in study the days or the weeks you see prior to that week going up to that meeting there I might not had been a position; I would not had been ready you see. But because of what I had prepared myself thought study and prayer and seeking God and that kind of thing then I was ready for the moment; I was ready for what God put in front of me right then and there.  So I got up there and I just began to take a scripture and I began to teach in the Spirit of God brought the anointing in there and thank God He came through and it was fine.  And you know the anointing was flowing and everything worked out because I was ready.  Now here’s the thing about it today, people in the Body of Christ now they may not be a minister but they have something to supply to the Body of Christ in this hour.  They need to be ready like I was ready at that time through their preparation and prayer.  

Sid: It reminds me of a woman that I interviewed that was just doing grocery shopping or shopping at a store and she goes to her car and all of a sudden there’s a gun in her ribs.  I mean how are you ready for something like that? If you’re not ready you’re not ready.

Charles:  Oh, I’m telling you. It’s like I have a missionary friend who was a missionary down in Mexico at the time and he had his…  He was driving his van and someone when he stopped at a stop sign someone just opened the door and got in the Van with him and put a gun in his ribs and told him where to go where to drive.  So he had him to drive out of town into a vacant field, or lot, and told him to get out of the van.  And he got out of the van and he told him to walk around to the front and he met this missionary in the front of the van and put this gun almost touching him between the eyes, not quite.  And was going to… and pulled the trigger on that thing.  And this missionary said that when that bullet came out of the end of the barrel of that gun it dropped immediately and fell to the ground.  He was ready he knew that no weapon formed against him would prosper.  Now you’ve got to be ready in a time like that because fear will absolutely just demoralize you at that point and time that you are looking down the barrel of a revolver.  And that guy you know he means business he’s going to pull that trigger.  If you don’t know you’re ready; I’m not just talking about ready to go the heaven that’s obviously very very that’s right on top of the list.   But if you’re not ready to confront a thing like that fear will totally dislodge you off of the word of God and you will then not be able to come though those things in that victorious way.  But he said that bullet came out of that thing and fell to the ground and he said it so terrorized or scared the man that did that that the man took off running and ran out of that field back up onto the road and left him there with his van.  God had delivered him because he was ready for the moment. That’s what we need to be here in this hour because we’re confronted with the terrorism that our nation, that the world is confronted with we need to be ready at all times at whatever situation or circumstance that we might find ourselves in. Or whatever God tells us to do, we need to be ready to face it we need to be ready to do it it’s a crucial hour.  I believe that God wants to use every person under the sound of our voice today; every person in the Body of Christ God want has something for them to do.  It has something that He’s placed within them to give to the Body of Christ to help compact and knit it together and make it to be the powerful powerful thing that it is in the world.

Sid: But that’s why you wrote this book because you explain that if we don’t deal properly with the cares of life it will put us out of position to be used in our destiny.

Charles:  Yes, and see what people have to understand is that I cannot supply to the Body what God has placed in them to give to the Body.  I can only supply what God has given to me; and with all of us working together and moving together and learning how to deal with cares of life, or learning how to deal with the pressures.  Learning how to deal with the stress that wants to come until we’re able to do that we’re not going to be able to give the Body of Christ what God has placed within us through your ministry and through your radio through your television ministry and the other facets of your ministry.  You’re giving to the Body of Christ what I could never give to the Body of Christ; but you’re giving it because you’re ready.  You are prepared for the moment for this time; you know how to deal with all of the pressures that come to you. And you know this we all know this pressures and cares in ministry come to us all. Just because we are ministers or have a ministry does not exclude us or eliminate us from cares or pressures and things that we can worry about if we could allow ourselves to do it. But yet we have to keep ourselves ready so that the ministry that God’s placed us in will not suffer because of our lack of readiness to carry forth the assignment that God has given to us. So we are ready to deal with whatever it is that Satan would bring against us to subvert, to undermine, and to destroy what God has called us to do in the earth at this time.  Every voice of God, not just a few, but every voice of God is critical in this hour because you are reaching people today; this broadcast is reaching people today that other ministry and other ministers cannot reach because God has assigned this to you to reach these people that you’re reaching today and we have to be ready in this hours. We cannot fail and we will not fail and we will be ready in this hour and in this time. And we’re going to have to do it by learning how to deal with the cares of life.  Not coping with the cares of life but dealing with them from the standpoint of God’s word and God’s power so that He can elevate us above them so that we can accomplish everything that God has assigned us to do, called us to do, equipped us to do.  And I believe that the Body of Christ is rising to that place today and I believe that we once again are going to have the voice in the world that God intended the Body of Christ to have.  We’re going to have that type of influence in these times in these days that we live.

Sid: You know Charles we’re out of time again; thank you so much for being my guest.

Sid: As you know I recently got back from Israel and I saw something, I’ve been going to Israel now since I’ve been a believer which is over 30 years. I have never seen what I saw in that land.  I saw an openness to the gospel.  I saw a hunger for God; I saw young people as open to the gospel as I ever seen in my life. Now I have found a strategy; if I will reach out to the Jew first it opens up a supernatural door to reach all people, but I have to have a method; how can I reach the Jew?  Ah, the Bible tells me; the Bible says “The Jew requires a sign” a miracle.  And so that’s why I’ve been pursuing to understand healing; understanding the supernatural of God because there’s a method; there’s a strategy involved.  If we can reach the Jew we can reach the world. And just think about it for a minute; God started with a Jew; the Bible says “Salvation is of the Jew.”  Where? In the land of Israel.  What was the job of the Jew?  The Jew was to be a light to the nations, the prophets tell us.  We’re to evangelize the world.   Well, we did a good job at the beginning but then we slowed down and turned the baton over to the Gentile believers.  But I believe that just before the Messiah returns and as the Orthodox Rabbis’ say “We are in the footsteps of the Messiah.”  That Jewish believers in the Messiah will be raised up red hot for the Lord from Israel that will take the gospel to the four corners of the earth.  That’s what we’re positioning ourselves for right at this moment.  I have on the telephone Pastor Bill Johnson; Sr. Pastor of Bethel Church in Redding, California.  And he has as part of the church the Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry.  And he’s not just talking; he is doing the works of Jesus.  Let’s just get a little bit of a background Bill. You have such a godly heritage; tell me about it.

Bill:  Actually I’m a 5^th generation pastor on my dad’s side, and 4^th on my mom’s.

Sid: And your grandparents I envy them; sat under the ministry of Smith Wigglesworth and others.

Bill:  Yes, yes yeah.  Smith Wigglesworth; Aimee Semple McPherson; my uncle was actually a soloist for Aimee Semple McPherson, and my grandparents knew her and yeah…

Sid: So you heard these stories I imagine as a young kid.

Bill:  Oh yeah I got ruined by good stories, yeah. 

Sid: Yeah, but then when you went to these good spirit filled churches and you saw miracles every once in a great while did you get cynical?  Did you think “Well, maybe God doesn’t do it anymore; what was going on inside of the man Bill Johnson?”

Bill:  You know I didn’t have a clue what was going on. I couldn’t realize why it happened so long ago and it wasn’t happening today I couldn’t figure that out.  And I just kind of accepted it actually for quite a season until I was a young adult.  And then I started realizing that I had kind of the wool pulled over my eyes and realized there was something within reach that I could pursue if I was willing to go after it. So we did we started crying out to God for the real evidence of the gospel.

Sid: But you had something supernatural happen to you in your own home that kind of gave you a jump start maybe.

Bill:  Yeah, well it actually came several years after we actually started in this pursuit and even after we started seeing breakthrough.  But it was a major turning point for me; I had been… we had a powerful meeting a couple of nights and I was praying over an individual and just encouraged him that the Lord was going to visit him  and really touch him and it could happen any time of the day or night.  And I mentioned specifically it could happen at 3:00 in the morning.  Well, that night I went to bed quite late probably 1:00 perhaps as late as 1:30, but pretty late.  I was awakened suddenly out of an absolute dead sleep to absolute 100% awake in a millisecond, really difficult to explain.  I turned my head and I looked at the clock and it was 3:00 AM exactly and I realized I had been set up by the Lord as I was giving that word to someone else.

Sid: Huh.

Bill:  And it was like and it was hard to explain but it was actually like electrical current going through my body and I had absolute no control. And it was so obviously God; it was glorious but not pleasant if that makes sense.  It was pleasant in the sense of just knowing that God was doing a work; that it wasn’t physically pleasant.  I mean it’s electrocution my arms and legs were shooting out.  I felt like current was shooting out of them I had no control.  My wife was next to me in a waterbed completely asleep because I think the Lord had just put her out.  And He just began to deal with me and He began to remind me of my prayer for the last 10 months I’d been praying literally “God I want more of You and I want more at any cost.”  And I laid there for 20 or 30 minutes and tears just flowing down my cheeks onto the pillowcase.  And He took me to several scenes.  He showed me teaching in front of the church and I had no control over my limbs and what an embarrassment that would be.  And the next scene I saw myself walking in our town in front of our favorite restaurant and with the same condition realizing that I would be an embarrassment to my city; I would be an embarrassment to my church; I didn’t know of anyone who would believe me that this was God.  And it was really obvious what the Lord wanted to me; He was wanting to know if I really wanted more of Him at any cost.  I was reminded of Jacob when God touched him he limped for the rest of his life. I was reminded; I’m reminded of Mary the mother of Jesus; she bore the stigma of being the mother of the illegitimate child all the days of her life.  And those things just flashed before my mind as I laid there reviewing the prayer that I’d prayed “Do I want more of Him at any cost.”  And when that moment was over where He began to show me what it might look like; I may never recover; I may never regain control of my body.  That doesn’t sound even scriptural to anybody on the outside, but I knew what God was dealing with; He wanted my dignity.  He wanted me to surrender my right to having dignity.  I laid there and I said “I’ll take it if I get more of You you can have my dignity.  You can make me look any way that you want as long as I get a greater sense of Your presence in my life I’ll gladly take it.

Sid: You know in our culture I can understand why that would be a tough cost.  And say in the culture of Abraham he had to be willing to sacrifice his only son; the son of the promise.

Bill:  Yeah.

Sid: So cultures are different; in our culture for someone to start shaking is not really man pleasing, and we have a man pleasing culture.

Bill:  Your right; your right exactly.  We call it wisdom but it’s really control; we tend to shut down what God is doing because it’s an embarrassment to us and we can’t explain it.  And God explains Himself very well we don’t need to defend Him.

Sid: Bill, what should be normal? What in your opinion is normal?  Because you imply in your book, which we’re featuring this week “When Heaven Invades Earth,” that things as usual in the 21^st century American Church is not normal.  What is normal?

Bill:  It’s… the most normal thing for a Christian is to have a passion to see impossibilities of life bend the knee to the Name Jesus.  It’s abnormal for a Christian to not have an appetite for the impossible.

Sid: Give me an example. In your book you talk about a most unusual wedding; tell me about that.

Bill:  (Laughing) It was a couple of folks in our church; they met in our homeless ministry working with the poor and the broken of our city.  And they fell in love and they wanted to get married and they were in their 30’s and really didn’t need anything they already had their household settled.  And they thought “Well, let’s just invite the homeless and poor to the wedding.”  And then they said “We don’t need anything so let’s just register at Target and let’s just register for coats, hats, gloves and sleeping bags and then we’ll just give all the gifts away to the poor the honored guests of the meetings.

Sid: That’s not exactly the way it’s normally done in America but go ahead.

Bill:  No, it was the strangest wedding ever I’ll tell you.  Well, I met with them before hand and they said “Bill if you have any of those words of knowledge during this ceremony stop the wedding and we’ll pray for the sick.” So I realized man this is going to be a real different wedding. So they registered for coats, hats and gloves.  We sent the buses out; people found out there was a free meal so they came to the wedding quite frankly because it was a free meal.  And so they had prepared a nice tri-tipped dinner and we went through the wedding.  My brother actually his team led in worship first and prayed the sinners prayer with everybody in the room and then we had the wedding. But there was a man that had come there on the bus with a neck brace and braces on his wrist and a limp and a cane. And he was given 2 ½ to 3 years to live.  And I had…

Sid: In addition to all of this he was a street person.

Bill: Yes, yeah and this was at the beginning of the change of our perspective on reality where we began to value what God had said and what He had promised in His potential more than  what we were seeing.  So I actually had people with excitement in their voice and saying “Bill, there’s somebody here that only has 2 ½ years to live.”  And the thing that caught me off guard was the joy they had in telling me that; it wasn’t a morbid thing it was “My here’s another chance for God to do a great miracle.” So we went through the wedding and the bride and groom got behind the serving table and they began to dish the food out for all of the guests. And of course that was a remarkable sight by itself.  And my brother and I stood to the side and looked at the man with the arm brace and neck brace and all and invited him over and began to pray for him.  And he had carpal tunnel on his wrist and I asked him what was wrong and he told me.  And I said “How about if we pray for that” he said “That would be great.”

Sid: Bill, we’re out of time we’ll pick up here on this story on tomorrows broadcast.

Sid:  I mean look at the signs; open your eyes.  Wake up sleeper it’s time to stop sleeping God’s got a work for you to do. My guest pastor Hank Kunneman; he’s Senior Pastor of Lord of Hosts Church in Omaha, Nebraska.  On yesterday’s broadcast we found out that in 1986 he was commissioned, and told a bit about what his future was with a heavenly visitation.  He has been prophetic most of his life, so specifically. Tell me a bit about this visitation that you had in 1986 when you were commissioned, you started on yesterday’s broadcast if you’d complete that.

Hank:  In 1986 again as I was mentioning in another broadcast; what had happened was that I had had an angel show up while I was praying and carry me out to meet another angel that was upon a platform that had many many different kings and rulers of nations on the platform.  He also had me look out and see the tongues of the tribes of many nations and began to commission and tell me that I was called to nations to minister the word of the Lord.  He then pointed and told me I was called to minister to rulers of nations.  At that time before we ended the broadcast he handed a scroll to me and written upon it was Revelation chapter 10.  I was to eat the scroll much like the book of Ezekiel, but also we find in the Book of Revelation.  What was written upon it was these words and it said “Thou must prophecy again before many people, nations, tongues and kings.” Now Sid at that time I had no idea what was getting ready to happen; I had no idea that God would anoint me as a prophetic voice especially to America but also to the nations.  It was shortly after that that It’s Supernatural began to increase by a word of knowledge, by the prophetic anointing.  God would give me names of people when I would go to meetings.  He would call then out by their name and He’d begin to tell specific events that had happened in their life.

Sid: Tell me one specific case that comes to mind.

Hank:  There is one particular case that had happened; I was at a church service and I remember calling a woman out and telling her that within a year’s time the Lord was going to give her a baby boy and he would be like a Samuel.  That he would be brought to minister the word of the Lord to a generation. Within a year’s time she would be with this child which would be a son and which she was crying out for.  Well, of course I did see a bright light that appeared that it appeared over her stomach area and I began to describe to her that God was doing a work in her heart.  Well, she began to try to interrupt me and tell me that that wouldn’t be possible and I was so under the anointing I didn’t want to be disrespectful I told her “Mam you need to be quiet God’s doing a work in you.”  Immediately a man jumped up and said “Sir, you don’t understand it’s not possible.”  I said “Listen God is saying that within one year’s time you’re going to have a son.”  Now prophets can miss it; there are false prophets, there are wrong prophets.  And there are true prophets but in this case God was doing a miracle.  Come to find out about a year later I was at the book table and this woman came running up to me and said, “Look at what you did.”  Well, of course I’m a happily married to my wife for 15 years and counting.  I immediately looked at her and said “Woman, I don’t know who you are.”  And she started laughing and saying “No, no no no, you prophesied over me that I would have a son; she said “I am pregnant with a boy, the ultra sound proves it.”  She said “What you have to no preacher I had a hysterectomy.”  So I was amazed that God did a creative miracle in this woman. We’ve seen countless things like that where God has called people out by their name literally.

Sid:  Now when God calls people out by their name is it just the first name or is it the whole name sometimes.

Hank: Sometimes for example how it works with the word of knowledge at least in my ministry is sometimes the Lord will say “There is someone here named so and so you have this symptom.”  Other times I’ll look at somebody and like how the writing was over the wall in the days of Hezekiah, a writing, like a name, will appear over their head.  Sometimes it will appear above them.  I’ll point my finger to a gentleman perhaps John, if that’s the name that I see and of course you know they say yes.  Sometimes it’s been their last name; other times it’s been their address.

Sid:  Now you also said that you see a light, is this sometimes or is it many times and what does the light mean?

Hank:   Sometimes when I see this light it usually it means that there is angelic activity.  For example, there’s a lady that I called out a few months ago by name and I called her out and she came forward and the light appeared.  And again it appeared over her body which I knew it was the way that the Lord was showing me that there was something that was going on in her body.  And the Lord began to have me describe what the doctor said word for word against a symptom that was in her body in her female area.  She literally she could put her hand on her she could feel like this tumor or cyst I don’t remember which one it was, one of the two.  And as soon as a light appeared over her head I said “I know that the Lord is sending an angel to touch you in that area.”  Immediately she felt it leave and had no more pain.  So a lot of time that when that light appears it usually means that there’s heavenly activity of sometimes it can be an angel appearing.  For example I was in Siberia a while back and there was a light that appeared over a particular gentleman and I began to prophecy over him and tell him that “You are a pastor that God shows me that you are a pastor,” and he said “That’s absolutely right.”  I said “God tells me that you’re being persecuted in your city and an angel has been sent to you tonight to deal with one who has been persecuting you and your church.  By the end of the night God says the angel shall come and you shall see that God shall vindicate you and deal with this one. It was later that night and of course I didn’t know I didn’t have the word of knowledge about this, I just saw the light and I knew that an angel had come behind this pastor. Well, later that night the very key leader of the city died. Of course it was the talk of the whole town and they wouldn’t let me get on to the train because obviously things are in chaos.  So a lot of time the light is what I see is heaven’s activity or sometimes it’s when angels come in and I do a work of miracle or act of healing in someone’s body or just to bring a revelation that will help me to identify what is going on in their life.

Sid:  Hank just so our Mishpochah get to know you a little bit better you’ve had many prophetic words of internationally known people.  Tell me a few of these people and a few of the words that have occurred before the event happened.

Hank:  For example back in 1992 God showed me that Bill Clinton, at that time, and again this is not a political situation.  Again when you’re a true prophet of the Lord you can’t be politically persuaded you have to obey what God says.  In 1992 the Lord began to deal with me that Bill Clinton was like Saul was to Israel.  I know this isn’t popular but this is what He said “So would be Bill Clinton’s administration to America that it wasn’t really God choice but God would allow it because of where the people were at and the condition of the Body of Christ was.” The Lord began to show me that he would be elected for 8 years. And that it would be 8 years of unrighteousness.  Now people brag about the economy; but what people don’t realize is what was done in the high office of the land by way of perversion, by way of lying; by way of controversy, literally came down upon the nation.  And it was the various things that we had to battle against in this election of this year.   But what happened also was 1996 I was preparing for a meeting and began to pray and to be honest with you I was getting really tired and I thought I’ll just lay down. And immediately I went to go to sleep and I went off into like a vision or a dream.  And I literally was taken into the White House in this vision or this dream.  And I saw the President sitting at his desk and he had trash sitting all around his desk he had it underneath the desk.  And immediately as he was looking across his desk a woman walked into his office and began to seduce him.  She had brown hair and began to literally lift him up by his hand and they went off into this little closet.  And began to commit what looked to me like obviously an adulterous act.  So I knew at that moment that something was happening with our President.

Sid: Now how far in advance was that of the actual event with Monica Leuinsky?

Hank:  I’m not accurate on the actual time frame; I know that this was back in 1986.  And I’m thinking that it was about a year later or so or a little longer that President had to appear before the nation.  And I saw also the word impeachment appear on that particular vision…

Sid: What do you do with these vision of something of that magnitude when they happen?

Hank: Well, I always say this the prophetic sometimes… I don’t want to use the analogy of gambling so to speak; that’s not my point or poker so to speak,  I’m not trying to be off color hear.  I don’t endorse it; what I’m saying is sometimes you got to know when to hold it, fold it, and run okay. (Laughing) In this case there’s certain things a prophet will get that is to be prayed out.  Other times I’ll deal like Jesus did with His first miracle; he submitted it to the governor of the feast. He submitted it to the place that He’s being fed and to those that are in authority.  I think that a lot of times prophets are not under accountability and the tendency is there’s no one to judge their prophecies like you read in the Book of Corinthians.  A prophet prophecies; let another prophet judge. So what I’ll do is I’ll run it by my pastor who I’m submitted to.  Or I’ll submit it to the you know the fathers of the faith and say “Listen, I’m getting this from the Lord.”  Because some things are not to be…

Sid: By the way Mishpochah on many of these prophecies that you’ll hear there are others that have heard him prophecy this before the event.  Unfortunately many prophets that are even household words are what I call non-prophet.  There’s a mixture obviously because a true prophet hears from God and the prophecies come to past.  Hank, give me one more prominent person that you had a prophecy about.

Hank:  Well, I had a prophecy back in the year 2000; actually I was in Oklahoma City in 1999, May of 1999.  Actually I was getting ready to give the microphone to turn the service over.  I immediately fell to the ground and I was taken out in a vision and began to see God bringing; and I know others have had the same word.  I saw a bush that was burning and I had no idea what it meant but I began to see that God was going to come with His hand and begin to move across America.  And what I was in 1999 in May was I literally saw the 3 recounts that was going to happen in Florida.  Now at the time I didn’t know that was what it was; but I saw an evil hand raising up Al Gore out of the ground.  Now again, this is not about a political party, again I’m just tell you what I’d seen.

Sid: Oy vey we’re out of time we’ll pick up right here on tomorrow’s broadcast.

Sid: I’m going to tell you something there’s such a move of God’s Spirit to be poured out on planet earth. I read to you this prophecy by the great Missionary from China, Hudson Taylor from China.  A proven Missionary; a proven Prophet and he said in the last days the great spiritual awakening; the greatest move of God’s Spirit would start in Russia in the center of Russia. I have Eric Carlson on the phone, and Rabbi Carlson is a Rabbi of a One New Man Congregation. Eric tell us about your congregation just briefly where it’s located and it’s name.

Eric: This is Congregation Zion’s Sake in Newport News in Virginia.  And we are a One New Man Congregation that meets for Shabbat Service Jew and Gentile that come together as one in Messiah.

Sid: And you told me that lately the Holy Spirit has been showing up in such a spectacular fashion that sometimes you can’t even get to your message.

Eric:   That’s absolutely right and that’s really why we come together on Shabbat services or any services because we want God to be there, and we want God to minister. As we come together and worship the Biblical truth. We follow what God teaches in His word and we just begin to worship and praise Him, the God of Israel, on the Shabbat the supernatural begins to happen and the Holy Spirit will fall.  And people just come to the altar; people get saved and they get ministered to by the Holy Spirit.  People say that’s the best word I’ve ever spoken; I don’t speak anything the Holy Spirit ministers.

Sid: But what we saw in Russia in Siberia we were at the center of Russia and that’s what Hudson Taylor said.  “In the center of Russia…” we didn’t know it at the time but we in Krasnoyarsk, Siberia which is the exact physical center of Russia. That’s where Hudson Taylor said that this great revival was going to start from. And we had an outreach to Jewish people.  And as I teach in my latest book that Charisma has published that’s just come out that’s called “The Race to Save the World.”  When you go to the Jew first it will open up a supernatural door of evangelism to all people. And Eric, I don’t know if you’ve ever seen this, I have never seen anything like it. Here we had a simple outreach to reach Jewish people and the whole city of Krasnoyarsk knew about it. I mean you turn on news channels and what did you see?

Eric:  Well the news channels had the press conferences; they were broadcasting from the sports stadium.  It was a number 1 news item in Krasnoyarsk for the week that we were there.

Sid:  And I want to talk about the last night of the Jewish outreach festival that we had. It was the highest attendance and there was anointing a presence of God that came upon me. I pray Mishpochah it will come upon you even as I’m speaking right now.  I call it the Siberian anointing.  Because I believe there is a rumbling going on that there will be 100’s of 1000’s of Jewish people coming to the Lord just from that festival, just from my speaking in churches about the One New Man.  I absolutely believe this. But the presence of God came so strong on me just before I spoke at that outreach that I could not stand without shaking.  I mean some people say “Well why are you shaking?”  I can’t help it when the presence of God comes on you you can’t stand still. And so I went out I spoke God started flowing in words of knowledge.  Large numbers of Jewish people were saved and by the way it’s not your typical outreach there was Rabbi’s and anti-missionaries from different parts of Russia and the United States.  And members of the Orthodox Lubavitcher Synagogues that were there passing out fliers that say don’t come in these are horrible people they’re a cult. And just… but these people came in anyway but there was one man in particular that was 93 years young. He came up to me afterwards a Jewish man and he said that he was a high level KGB agent.  And he was telling me all these marvelous that he had accomplished in his life but with all of that at 93 years of age this Jewish man along with most of the people that were in that audience said payers to come to know the Messiah to make Yeshua, that’s Hebrew for Jesus, make Yeshua Messiah and Lord of their life. It was almost like a net… Eric I have to tell you the way I felt, I felt like if I hadn’t done a good job but I’d been studying for 30 years to understand the facts why Yeshua is the King of the Jews the Messiah of the whole world.  But if I had just done almost nothing, and that’s what I believe this anointing is going to do.  If you can just share the simple gospel and anyone can do this a net went out and just pulled these people in. And so when it was over I was still shaking, this…Eric you were there, you took pictures, you sensed the anointing. Give me some of your feedback.

Eric:  Awe it was fantastic, and the people the listeners really don’t know is that these cities in Siberia and even Hudson Taylor didn’t know this when he made the prophecy because it was almost 50 – 60 years after he prophesied this that then Soviet Union the communist sent all of the Jewish people into these cities.  So were in the city where the population is somewhere between 50 to 70,000 Jews alone.  So these people come in droves to this. And that last night of the meeting was out of this world. The anointing and the Spirit that was there and God was there. As you lead the prayer and the people stood thousands, literally thousands of people stood to receive their Messiah.  People were healed, people were restored. And there was Israeli’s there Sid, and you know there was Jewish mafia gangsters that were there.  The One New Man this new anointing cuts through everything; it doesn’t matter the background where they are from, who they were before this. But this fresh anointing cuts through all of that thousands received their Messiah that day.

Sid: And you know I got reports I wasn’t outside were these anti-missionaries were trying to stop the Jewish people from coming in. And the Jewish people were saying “What you don’t want me to think for myself.  You don’t want me to go in and look at the facts,” and they were getting angry at the Rabbis.

Eric:  That was right they were getting angry and upset and the anti-missionaries were passing out papers don’t do this and don’t do that.  And we saw most of the people take that paper and crumple it up right before the anti-missionaries and throw it on the ground.  They didn’t even want to read that stuff.

Sid:  Eric you and I have been pioneering now for awhile on the One New Man and I see it’s really going to take off in Russia.  And as a matter of fact the head of the Pentecostal church for all of Russia invited me to come back in the month of December to give a talk on the One New Man to all of the Bishops of all of the Pentecostal Churches throughout Russia.  I mean I believe, and you know we’ve started this evangelistic Russian broadcast it’s on secular radio in Israel and Germany.  And as the money comes in we’re going to go into every city in the former Soviet Union.  And then we’re printing my book of 10 Jewish Testimonies “They Thought for Themselves” in Russian.  We have over a half a million of these in print and we’re giving them away free to any Jewish person that writes in and says they will read this book. What I want to do now is work with all of these churches, and I’ll work with any church that wants to do this. I mean this is harvest time and according to Amos who says that once the family of David the Jewish people come into know the Lord they’ll be this great Gentile revival.  And it describes the revival there’s never been a revival like it, it’s going to be such a big harvest that we will be forced to work together. The charismatic’s and the non-charismatic’s, I mean all of the things that divide there will be so much fruit on the ground that there will be a new harvest started and we won’t be able to even collect all of the fruit of the first harvest.  This is what it says read it in the last chapter of the book of Amos because Amos saw the same revival that Hudson Taylor saw. So I believe that Russia it will be easier for them to change because Christianity modern this modern move of God’s Spirit has only been there about 10 or 11 years where they’ve had freedom.  But revival hasn’t hit yet but they are willing when I explain the One New Man but it’s so simple but the problem is Eric as you know a lot of churches they have tithers and they don’t want to shift their vision.  They don’t want to upset things and God will use them and God bless them.  And God’s going to use the Messianic Jewish Synagogues God bless them.  But if you’re in a Messianic Synagogue, if you’re in a Gentile church and you believe that there’s something more and you read the book of Acts and you read the Bible and you say “I don’t see this going on my church.”  Well it doesn’t matter if you’re Charismatic or not there’s some missing ingredients and the church has picked up so much  tradition that it’s literally difficult for God to show up. But in your congregation Eric which is a One New Man Congregation. In Siberia which I just left I believe there’s going to be so many One New Man there already are a number in Russia that have started.  You even went to Africa on behalf of Messianic Vision and how many One New Man Congregations did you find in Africia?

Eric:   Huh, we’ll in Africa now there is over 55 One New Man Congregations and it’s growing as we speak even now.

Sid: Well I believe that there are some pastors that are crying out to God and they’re saying “God there’s got to more I’m so hungry, is this all there is?”  There’s members of churches crying out.

Sid: You know what I was thinking just as I started this show was that many people before they know the Messiah; before they were born from above they have gifting from God.  For instance a night club singer was really called by God to be a Psalmist but they just haven’t had the revelation yet.  A world class salesman was really called to be an evangelist but they just haven’t been born again yet.  And I find that many people that operate in the supernatural they had a passion for the supernatural before they knew the Messiah and the only door they saw open was the New Age; that’s what happened to me.  And that’s what happened to my guest Patricia King.  Now in 1976 Patricia King was just lost in the world in the New Age and she was having her son was about ready to be born and you prayed to God because there were real serious problems.  You said “God if You’re real save me and my son.”  What was going on with you and your son?

Patricia: That’s right Sid I was in a very serious condition actually; I went into convulsions just prior to delivering him. I wasn’t in labor yet and I went into convulsions and in the midst of it I had the devil actually come to me in a vision and he spoke to me.  I saw him very clearly; I heard his voice audibly and he said “If you will give to me the child that is in your womb I will work out all your life’s problems; I will take care of you; I will make sure that everything works out well.”  And then he faded out of the vision; I don’t know how I knew that he was the devil I just knew.  Well, after he finished Jesus came into the vision and it was just very faint; when Jesus came in it was just kind of an impression of Jesus with His arms being held out.  And in an inner audible voice inner quiet voice rather; just like a whisper He said “Come to me.”  And I cried out within because I wasn’t able to talk or anything I just said “Jesus if You are for real; if You rescue my child and I tonight.”  Because we were still convulsing and we were in a very dangerous state.  I said “If you give us life I will give You the rest of my life.” I didn’t know what that meant; I hadn’t had the gospel preached to me as far as knowing how to receive Jesus as my personal Savior.  But I came out of convulsions at that moment; they took me down to the operating room; delivered my son.  When he was born I saw this brilliant white light around him and I knew, that I knew, that I knew that Jesus had delivered us. That night I determined to give my life to Jesus even though I didn’t know how to do that yet.

Sid: And as a matter of fact because you didn’t know you continued in the New Age; but then you went to a Bible study run by an Anglican minister and people starting sharing how their lives were changed and testimonies and a light bulb went on inside of you; what happened?

Patricia:  That’s right I heard them share how Jesus forgave them of their sin and gave them a brand new life.  I didn’t need to be told I was a sinner; I knew I was I just didn’t know how not to be.  So I said went I got home I went down on my knees on my living room floor and I said “Jesus, I don’t know how to talk to You or pray properly or anything like that; but those people up the street said that You came into their heart and forgave them of all of their sin and gave them a new life; would You do that for me?”  And Sid I didn’t know for sure that He would do it because I heard their testimonies and they shared some of the things that they’d done before they’d got saved and I thought “Sure, that’s awesome that God could forgive that but my sin seems so much bigger than theirs and I thought I wonder if He could forgive the likes of me?”  So I wasn’t sure; but the moment I asked Him to come in He didn’t hesitate.  And Sid it was like this liquid love came into my heart; it was just like flowed in and I actually felt my sins being removed.  I actually felt the guilt; the shame; the weight of the sin; the distress of it absolutely leave me in just a moment of time.  And I wept and wept and wept because I had been introduced to God; I had been introduced to love Himself.  And my whole being filled up with love; and I knew that the one that knew me the most; He knew everything that I’d been doing in the back closet He knew all my sin and yet He loved me so perfectly.  And was willing to remove that sin and give me a brand new life.

Sid: And your ministry today is known for love; I mean that marks your ministry today, and also known for gifts of the Spirit.  Now with me I had a similar experience in that my whole room was; it was a bedroom was just filled with liquid love.  I didn’t even know how to describe what it was; but it was the most wonderful thing in the world. So I do have a degree of a paradigm for what happened to you.  But you had training early on how the Holy Spirit operates and gifts of the Spirit.  Tell me the first time that you saw an angel.

Patricia:  Well, the first time that I saw an angel with open eye vision; with full open eye vision would have been probably around I think 1990 or something maybe.  I had senses of angels before that; but this angel was enormous and it was while I was praying in my home.  I looked up from my prayer and on the second level of our home, because we had an open loft on the second floor, there was an angel with the top of his head going through the roof.  So we had at least 18 feet in our home between the two floors plus whatever went off the top of the ceiling.  So I would say that the angel was about 20 feet tall; and it just you know filled all of this space and it actually frightened me when I saw it because I wasn’t expecting it.  And I screamed and when I did it went out of my vision and I couldn’t I couldn’t seem to get it back after that.  But I never forget seeing that angel; and I asked the Lord “Lord I don’t know what that angel was doing here like what is that, I’ve never seen anything like that.  And I wished I hadn’t screamed or I wish I hadn’t gotten afraid because it just left my vision.”  And He said “It is there to protect you; it is there to watch over you in this next season.”  And we had been just stepping into a season of intense warfare, but the entire time we walked through that that area of warfare I remembered I don’t need to fear God sent that angel and I kept seeing the impression of that angel in my mind.

Sid: And you also have dreams and visions; tell me about the time you were in Israel and you had a vision of what’s about ready to happen.

Patricia: Well Sid that was in the fall August – September of 2013 I was in Israel and there was conflict as there is often times there was conflict severe conflict. We were close to the border of Syria where the conflict was and on the news there was broadcasters were saying “This could be the start of a third world war” and there was tumult amongst the nations and there was an uproar going on.  And then I was getting emails from many Christians who were saying “Oh, I think that this is going to be the end of the end, and think that there is going to be a 3^rd World war” and they were coming into agreement with it. Well, as I was in Israel the Lord said very, very clearly “This is not the time.”  We know that there will be… we know that there’s wars and rumors of wars of course but this is not the time for that or to break out and you must stop it because as My people you have the power in the earth I’ve given you authority to bind and to loose, but if the enemy brings forth this war before it’s time it will set everything back out of its right timing.  And it will take generations and generations to come into the place where I want to bring this great harvest; this great revival that’s coming. And so it was a very clear word from the Lord to take dominion in the Spirit and to dissipate the wave of expectation for a tremendous disaster through war to take place.

Sid: You also saw God’s heart to bless nations; tell me about that.

Patricia:  Yeah, I believe Sid that we are on the precipice of one of the greatest moves of the Spirit in all of church history.  And in 1995 in February of 1995 I had a vision actually I went into a trance and saw a number of visions.  But one of them was this globe of the world where I saw every nation and God’s hand was cupped over Israel.  And His other hand swept all of the way around the world and touched every nation.  There was like an ingathering and there was gifts being deposited and there was the glory of God being deposited in nations by the hand of God.  And when the sweeping of that move was complete on all the other nations then He took His hand off of Israel because Israel was the only nation who hadn’t got the sweeping hand of God in that way.  When He took His hand off of Israel all the other nations spontaneously brought their gifts, their blessing and everything to the nation of Israel and to the people of Israel. It was an amazing thing I just started weeping when I saw the vision and I realized that God has appointed a time for the nations to be blessed in Him but that they will bring all the blessings they will bring the blessings to Israel.

Sid: And you know what’s so neat is Patricia is that the way that God has ordained it the reason they bring those great blessings to Israel is so that they’ll even have greater blessings coming back to them; that’s the way God orchestrated.

Sid: Well my guest is Jonathan Bernis; you’re familiar with him from “Jewish Voice With Jonathan Bernis.”  Jonathan and I go back many many years. I’m reminded of a time that we had a meeting of leaders of Jewish believers in the Messiah. At this meeting Jonathan said “I feel like God is directing me to go to the former Soviet Union to evangelize.”  And you laid out a little bit of a plan because you hadn’t done it; you didn’t know what to expect, and it was really shot down but I loved the idea.  Jonathan and I went to the former Soviet Union several times and you… how did you even come up with the concept to go there and do a special event of Jewish music and dance for the Jewish Community?  I know it came from God but how did it happen?

Jonathan: Sid, just reflecting back on the whole experience it was a process that began with a need that I identified which was the plight of Soviet Jews.  Then the conviction in my heart the conviction that the Lord dropped in my heart that He wanted me to be involved in this somehow.  Out of obedience and faith I went to Russia back in 1990 just out of… I walked in the light that I had and that many many Jewish people that were very open of the gospel which led to more trips back and forth.  And then the Lord spoke to me very clearly on an airplane in 1992 and said “Go back to my people and proclaim the good news.”  And I was reading Matthew 24:14 where Yeshua was saying that “Before end will come the gospel has to go to every ethnos.”  In Greek the word ethnos which is translated nation is people group.  And so understanding that the gospels to the Jew first I simply went back in faith and this plan unfolded. It’s all about faith Sid; I have to tell you the Bible’s so clear “Without faith it’s impossible to please God.”  The fight of every believer is the fight of faith. And it really was the call of God and the response in faith that brought this all about.

Sid: Well, I want to take you back to the first night there were advertisements. I was with you, and there were some Messianic Jewish music groups.  That first night we didn’t know what to expect; so we ran ads.  And it’s never been done before it’s a foreign country you need translators.  The auditorium was packed, and then when you gave the altar call explain that moment.  Because I know what happened inside of me I was there, but you explain that moment of what happened inside of you.

Jonathan:  Well, you’re right none of us knew what to expect; I had these dreams of these nightmares of an empty hall and this was a 4,000 seat hall.  I have all my friends there including you and Joyce. And I’m thinking that this is going to be a disaster and I’m going to be embarrassed.  The enemy will do that, but to our amazement the hall was packed we had to turn people away.  And when the time came in the music for me to share I just went out with a microphone and with a spot light.  And I told people how the Lord had changed my life.  I shared some scriptures; very simple scriptures about the Messiah standing at the door of our heart and knocking and whosoever will call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved.  And then I gave a simple invitation for people that wanted to respond to come forward.  And Sid to my shock almost the whole auditorium got out of their chairs and came down the altars; just pouring down.

Sid: But I saw something even beyond that Jonathan in addition to what’s you’re saying.  I saw Jewish people running to get saved; I’ve never seen that before in my life! (Laughing)

Jonathan: I haven’t either Sid and most of the people in that hall were Jewish; there were very few people that weren’t Jewish.  And they did they came running down the aisle with their arms outstretched tears on their faces.  And I did everything I could to fight back the tears.  Because even now as I talk about it I’m just gripped by that picture, I’ve never seen anything like it before that.  And of course the years that followed we saw football stadiums filled mostly with Jewish people open to the gospel and responding to the gospel.  Sid we’re living in remarkable days.

Sid: But you know what I want I want to see because I believe the greatest miracles; the greatest evangelism the world has ever see is about ready to happen. So I want those that are listening to be mentored by what you did and I did it right along with you because we’ve been friends for all these years.  What you did what word would you say are the major keys that allowed you to accomplish and be used by God like He used you?

Jonathan:  Well, Sid I believe that everything that we do is lasting is done by faith.  Again, we’re to fight the good fight of faith; “Without faith it’s impossible to please Him.”  It’s all about walking in faith and when we walk in faith we’re able to hear the voice of God.  And I believe the scripture teaches two ways that we can build up faith.  We can walk in faith and actually grow in faith. The first one is praying in other tongues.  I love in the Book of Jude where we have this warning against those that have been sensual which means to become sense controlled.  Controlled by the senses; they have been overtaken by materialism; by the cares of this world; they’ve been deceived. Because the mind; the renewed Sid are against the things of God.  And the exhortation in verse 17 “But you dear friends you don’t have to be this way; you can rise above the senses.” Verse 20 and 21 “You dear friends build yourself up in your most holy faith.”  How?  By praying in the Holy Spirit.  And I believe that’s talking about other tongues.  And one thing that we’ve done together over the years Sid is times of fasting and prayer where we spend hours praying in other languages and it builds up our faith; it releases things.

Sid: You know both of us as new believer’s in the Messiah we came in… there was the Charismatic Movement was going, the Full Gospel Business Men, churches would not say go to the back room and we’ll pray for you to be baptized in the Holy Spirit and speak in a supernatural language.  It hadn’t been demoted to the backroom or out of the church.  You and I would pray days in tongues and at that time I have to tell you Jonathan I knew that it was God and I knew that it was important but I didn’t know how important it was.  Because when we pray in supernatural languages we are first of all faith; we’re prophesying our future, and we’re prophesying our future in perfect prayers with no unbelief and the devil can’t even understand what we’re saying. I am convinced that when you and I were praying in tongues all those years ago I was prophesying the ministry It’s Supernatural; you were prophesying the amazing things you’ve done over the years and we didn’t even have a clue. (Laughing)

Jonathan:   Not only that Sid but through praying in other tongues and bypassing my mind and building my spirit. Which is how we hear the voice of God by the way not with our mind; I moved into new dimensions of intercession of travail, of supplication. I had these experiences Sid as you remember where I would be brought down to the ground in travail.  I was giving birth to things that I didn’t even understand and I believe that was the preparation for the outpouring of the former Soviet Union that we both…

Sid: Others that we’re praying in tongues with us they would start travailing and it’s almost like a woman giving birth.  That’s what we were both doing we were giving birth.  But then the second key is meditating on God’s Word.  And that’s why I’m so excited to be releasing your brand new book “Confessing the Hebrew Scriptures, The Lord is Peace.”    And these are scriptures that you have personally selected on having peace.  And as you explained in yesterday’s broadcast the word peace is Shalom but it means completeness in all the blessings, in all the favor; in all the promises of God.  And you have it in Hebrew and you listen to a native born Israeli speak the promises in Hebrew.  Then you have it transliterated so anyone can speak Hebrew.  And they can speak it out in the promises in the original Hebrew.  There’s something supernatural about the spoken word; I mean the whole earth was created with the words of the Living God.  But it’s being spoken in Hebrew.  It’s changing the chemistry of your body and then it’s in English and you have a CD so not only can they read it phonetically as this transliteration method that Jewish Community developed so that we could read Hebrew.  But now instantly people can read it in Hebrew.  And people are taking this book and this powerful CD; they’re going to sleep with it at night, they’re doing it during the day.  They’re making it a wonderful gift.  And the book is so beautiful it would make a beautiful book to just put on the coffee table… Jonathan tell me we did this once before on Hebrew Scriptures on healing.  Tell me what feedback you got from the people that got a hold of this kit.

Jonathan:   Sid do I have time to read a quick letter.

Sid: Go for it.

Jonathan: I got it – we had just released Adonai or Jehovah Shalom it’s brand new; but the healing one has been out for a couple of years on scriptures that confess  or proclaim the Lord is Our Healer and Health. I got a beautiful letter from a Pastor that says “He had a woman in their congregation who was dying with leukemia.  I ordered the set for her and the doctors gave her 10 to 12 days to live.  I gave her the CD and asked her to listen to it continually with our prayers, our faith in the scriptures in Hebrew God healed her.  The same doctors came in and told her that she does not have any leukemia cells at all.  Plus her body is producing the blood again and she’s not dying but will live and declare the works of the Lord.”

Sid: Now I’ve only dreamt about what my guest has heard; my guest is the last living link to Azusa Street Revival.  Those that aren’t familiar with the Azusa Street Revival this happened in California; the most improbable situation a warehouse; a one eyed black preacher; before there was integration of races, and the shekinah glory showed up in this warehouse and almost everyone that walked in walked out healed!  My guest Tommy Welchel met some of the elderly survivors; remember now this was 100 years ago.  He met some of these survivors and they told him firsthand what they saw; how they prayed; what the results were.  So he really is the last living link.  Now Tommy you were told that your destiny was to make this known. What occurred over 100 years ago?  Who told you this?

Tommy: She’s getting pretty old now her name is Jean Darnell.  She said “That one day I would put these stories in print.”  And that was in 1966; I’d been listening to the stories for 6 years but I couldn’t tell them for 40 years.

Sid: Why?

Tommy: Well, there is a little story behind that I had a visitation from the Lord in my hiding place.

Sid: What was your hiding place?

Tommy:  It was a little secret place I made for myself up at the attic at Pisgah.  If I didn’t want anybody to bother me I would go up there and hide.

Sid: Alright Pisgah was a place where a lot of people that were involved in the revival…

Tommy: Quite a few.

Sid: It was almost like a retirement home.

Tommy:  Yes it was; it was called the Pisgah Home.

Sid: And that was in California.

Tommy: Right next to Pasadena.

Sid: Okay.

Tommy: And there a man by the name of David du Plessi told me to go up if I wanted another encounter with Jesus. The first one I had He got close to me and I fainted.

Sid: (Laughing)

Tommy:  I got overcome and I passed out.

Sid: So you made up your mind that you’re not going to faint this time or the next time.

Tommy:  Right, so I got up there and I’m praying and all of a sudden my alarm goes off and I turn it off and the little room in there is light as day.  Well, there were no lights up there; at that time there were no electricity up in the loft; there is now.  But I thought the light; I knew who that was.  Well, I looked to the right and here’s this beautiful robe; I can’t describe to you how beautiful that robe was; snow white and it glowed.  And I knew who it was; I leaped up and threw my arms around His waist and stuck my face into His stomach.  And all of a sudden I feel this hand stroking the back of my head.  He said my name one time He said “Tommy.”  And then He said “Be patient and be obedient over and over” And then all of a sudden He’s gone and it’s daylight out there.

Sid: Now what did He want you to be patient for that He impressed it so much that He said “Over and over?”

Tommy:  Well, when I had left Pisgah I would want to so badly to tell some of these stories and every time I would start I’d hear that voice.  “Tommy I said to be patient and obedient.”  Well, I’d freeze and I couldn’t tell them.

Sid: When did He release you to tell these stories?

Tommy:  In 2006.

Sid: Any idea why 2006 versus; 1995 or 1990?

Tommy:  It was the 100^th year of Azusa Street.

Sid: So what did that mean?

Tommy:  In 40 years after I had quite listening to the stories.  I guess it was His timing.

Sid: I understand that in 1909 there was a series of 3 prophesies about something that would happen 100 years from Azusa Street Revival. Tell me about those prophesies.

Tommy:  Well, the first was Mary Woodworth-Etter.  She’s the one that had the revival in 1913 down in Echo Park, there in Holly Park.  She prophesied that soon before the second coming of the Lord there would be a great revival.  A huge revival that would have in place.  And then William Seymour just before 1910 got up in the altar and made a prophesy that in about 100 years there would be another revival like unto Azusa Street return with miracles and the shekinah glory.  And to this there would be no end until the coming of the Lord.  But it wouldn’t be in one place or with one person; it would even be in some homes with families and they would be healing the sick and performing supernatural miracles.

Sid: Now there were three people that prophesied; who else?

Tommy:  Charles Parham who had the big revival in 1901 in Topeka.

Sid: In Topeka; right.

Tommy:   He was in New York City and they tell me almost simultaneously he was making that same prophesy in New York City and this was 1909.  They didn’t have the communications they have now so they didn’t together and make this up.

Sid: So approximately 100 years from the Azusa Street Revival there would be another revival.  Now would the miracles be greater than what we saw at Azusa Street?

Tommy:  They said greater.

Sid: Okay, they would be greater; they would be just before the appearing of the Lord and they would continue, whereas in Azusa Street they stopped after about 3 ½ years.

Tommy:  Yes.

Sid: Now let me take you back to the beginning of Azusa Street and remember Tommy was just a teenager.  He met the elderly survivors that had firsthand seen what occurred in Azusa Street and we’re going to see greater.  But someone that intrigues me a lot is this William Seymour.  He was the most unlikely person a one eyed black preacher.

Tommy:  Very much. 

Sid: Now at that time there was segregation of churches.

Tommy:  Yes.

Sid: What did he do about it being black; he wanted white people in there to see this great move of God’s Spirit; what did he do?

Tommy:  It was the first integrated church in America that I know of.  Seymour got kind of fanatical.  If he come down from his apartment to the service and there were 20 or more of the same color sitting in one place he would separate them.  He would not tolerate any kind of segregation he wanted them all integrated.

Sid:  And was it true that when he started this revival he would come down and put a box; what was it cardboard?

Tommy:  No, wood.  

Sid: A wood box.

Tommy:  It’s boxes they ship food in.

Sid: Okay and he put it over his head; why did he do that?

Tommy: He told signs is an obedience to God; and I believe it was just humble obedience.

Sid: And then he wouldn’t take, listen to this, he would not take this wooden box off of his head until he knew what God wanted to do.

Tommy:  Until God spoke to him.

Sid: Tell me I’m so curious about this William Seymour; tell me some of the things they told you about him that they saw firsthand.

Tommy:  Well, Seymour there’s sometimes they said he would come down and now it wasn’t all the time but sometimes; he looked at a whole area that were laying there in cots that were brought from the hospitals.  And he looked up and he says “Every one of you if you want to be healed you can in Jesus Name your healed; get up and take up your cots you’re healed.”  Every one of them; he said there was about 3 dozen; got up rolled up their cots; did not go back to the hospital.

Sid: Do you know much about the education of this William Seymour?

Tommy:  Seymour was not highly educated; he was the son of slaves; he didn’t get much of an education.  Back then in the south they didn’t educate the blacks very well.  You know they were prejudice they thought blacks couldn’t learn anyhow.  That was a lie.

Sid: So God picked a one eyed black man to lead the greatest revival in the history of America.  God will use whoever is available.  Well, I’ll tell you what we’re out of time today… Now on tomorrow’s broadcast Tommy I want you to tell me how this great man of God William Seymour died from a broken heart not physically broken but emotionally broken and what he did that I believe stopped the greatest revival that ever hit America so we don’t do it again.