Sid: My guest is red hot for the Messiah and I’m praying it’s going to fall right off of him onto you. Eddie James, and Eddie I’ll tell you something that is so in dear to my heart.  I see that you have a burden for the Jew in Israel, you go to Israel, you’ve even done concerts in Israel.  Do many young Israeli’s come there and do any of them get saved?  What’s going on?

Eddie: It’s amazing we go usually once or twice every year. When we go we do outdoor events in Tel Aviv, we do outdoor events in Nazareth and Haifa.  We go to Bethlehem; we go to Jerusalem obviously. We go all over Israel and I usually go around the Christmas holiday season to do this tour where I take the young people I minister to through the word as I’m there in Israel.  But we also do outreaches to reach the community.  I’ll never forget I went to Haifa and a 18 year old drug addict Jew give his life to Jesus.  We were in Tel Aviv we’ve seen kids that were coming out of clubs and pubs giving their life to Jesus.

Sid: Eddie I know something, I know that Israel is ready for a move of God like they’ve never seen before. There are going to be so many people coming to the Lord, I just can’t wait and go out to your next concert.  Because you could be one God is going to use to just explode revival in Israel.  But the miracles that are happening, tell me about the man that was paralyzed from the waist down.

Eddie:   Oh oh okay we were in Columbus, Ohio at World Harvest. We’re singing this song in worship that just speaks of the rivers of living water, just rivers of living water out of your belly shall flow.  And we’re just in the glory and there was a brother that was part of this congregation I knew him for several months before he had a bad fall in construction he was several feet in the air and he had a bad fall, and paralyzed from the waist down.  Sitting in his wheel chair during this worship experience he begins to have feeling come back into his legs and he says to his wife, and his family around he say’s “I can feel my legs, I can feel my legs.” I saw him while I’m up on the platform the worship of explosion of praise having there to the left while I’m standing on the platform.  Well he gets up he decides to get up out of the wheelchair, he begins to walk, he begins to run, pushes the wheelchair and then carries the wheelchair, carrying around the sanctuary completely made whole; completely set free.  Body is completely healed, no one laid hands on him, it was just the presence of God in worship releasing healing on people.

Sid: Can you imagine I’m wondering what his doctor had to say about that, do you know if he went to the doctor?

Eddie: Oh, he went back to the doctor a full report; the x-ray that showed where the damage was before, the doctor’s report said that he’d be paralyzed for the rest of his life.  Took the report from the doctor with the x-ray’s showing that he is completely healed, completely made whole and the doctor… I heard that the doctor was in tears and beyond himself saying “We have never seen anything like this.”

Sid: How about the woman who lost 200 pounds in a worship service?

Eddie:  Ha ha, that was crazy now we’re in Gatlinburg at this youth conference actually. I don’t know if I’ve ever been a part in America of a more powerful Youth Conference where God falls; anybody that was there can tell you it was one of the most grooviest experiences with young people we have ever seen.  We saw about 4 or 500 good kids slain just on the floor just shaking under the power of God.  There was this woman I don’t know what her disease was but whatever it was caused her to gain a lot of weight. She got delivered in that meeting.  Again no one laid hands on her just the glory of God in the meeting.  She lost 200 pounds right there in the meeting, clothes handing off of her; just crazy, crazy miracles that night.

Sid: How about someone that’s homosexual, give me one testimony of some set free.

Eddie:  Okay there’s a guy he’s all over our website his name is Kegan Wesley, probably the most miraculous deliverance of homosexuality I’ve ever witnessed in my entire life.  This young man we picked him up in Louisville, Kentucky. For many of you all that don’t know exactly what I do we have our rescue outreach to high school and college youth coming out of drug addiction and gang life and perverse lifestyles and we care for forty young people every time.  And this was at no cost to them in our homes. We picked this kid up that really wanted to be free and he came when we picked him up in Louisville, Kentucky he had to go back home and meet us in Columbus, Ohio.  He met us at the Potters House in Columbus, Ohio, that day the Lord delivered that kid from homosexuality. I’m telling you it’s a ripped way I thought the kid was a girl at first, he looked like a female, he looked like a women, changed his mannerism he changed his mind set to one of the strongest witnesses of homosexuality.  He is winning so many homosexuals to the Lord it’s just phenomenal what KOS…

Sid: Now he is really a new creation, I want you to hear Eddie James in “New Creation.”

Excerpt: “New Creation”

Sid:  I have on the telephone a man that normal for him is abnormal for most Christians; normal for him is to do the stuff he sees in the New Covenant. His name, Pastor Bill Johnson, Senior pastor of Bethel Church in Redding California.  Bill your latest book “The Supernatural Power of a Transformed Mind.”  I happen to like the subtitle better, the subtitle is “Access to a Life of Miracles.” Most Christians believe in miracles or they wouldn’t be a Christian.  To me the two don’t go together, however, it’s a big mystery to most Christians.  It’s not a mystery to you what was the purpose of this book, “The Supernatural Power of a Transformed Mind?”

Bill:  We have a sense of obligation indebtedness to the Lord to produce a life of miracles, He’s set up everything to where it’s possible. The only remaining factor is what are we going to do with what He given us?  And so my purpose in writing that book is to encourage and motivate the Body of Christ to pursue what He made available to us. When the Spirit of the resurrected Christ comes to reside in our physical body, a powerlessness become inexcusable.  God has made it possible for us to seek His face, to have divine encounters so that we can bring others into a Divine encounter.

Sid:  Okay Bill, the Body is divided in many different flavors if you will.

Bill:  Sure.

Sid:  But let’s say the Charismatic Pentecostal type people talk about miracles, believe in miracles, but see very few why?

Bill:  Well, we don’t… a relationship with the Holy Spirit is primarily theory, we love the idea of Him empowering us but it’s been mostly for comfort in the hard times instead of learning how to cooperate with Him.  Jesus gave us the secret to miracles, He said, “I only do what I see My Father do, I only say what I hear Him Say.”  Which means He is aware of Heaven, the heartbeat of Heaven, He’s aware of the passion of the Father, and He’s simply works to mimic, or to copy, or to demonstrate what is going on in the heart of the Father here on earth.

Sid:  But a lot of people say “I believe it and they go out and they…I remember myself as a new believer I started reading the New Testament, I got so excited and my daughter who’s a married woman with children now, at that time was a little girl and she was sick and I laid my hands on her and she wasn’t healed.  And then I remember today even she said to me “How come Jesus didn’t heal me?”  You know these were times where I didn’t have any mentors, I have an answer today, but what would you say to that little girl and that father if they came to your study.

Bill:  We have people all the time that come and don’t get healed we have to deal with that on a constant basis. The problem isn’t on God’s end of the equations, the problem’s on our end.  He’s the one that made a baptism of fire available. If a person is not getting a breakthrough as they pray for people then they must have a more profound encounter with God.  And the only way to do that is with fasting, prayer, setting time aside to seek the face of God until He touches us.  If we look throughout history those who were just so disturbed that they weren’t able to produce the life of Christ in affect of with miracles signs and wonders. When they set aside time to just cry out to God for more, not matter the cost God met them and these folks became household names.  But they didn’t start that way, they started as people that were frustrated with their own personal lack of anointing, their own personal lack of power.  You can’t give away what you don’t have and the only way to get it is as basically two ways one is seeking the face of the Lord, the second is through impartation.  But impartation from other people doesn’t replace the need to seek God’s face personally.  But there is a grace that people walk in a grace, a gifting from God to work in the miraculous that when they lay hands on you and pray it comes in seed form, but if you use what was given to you and just simply don’t stop it will grow to maturity.  Gifts come free, maturity is expensive.

Sid:  You know as you sharing this I’m thinking about many of the great men and woman of God that I’ve interviewed over the years and what your saying is what my experience is.  Most of them, I remember Rodney Howard Brown saying I went into a room and I said “God I’m not coming out until you touch me or take me home.”  But I mean it was that type of desperation that got that presence of God on him and now from what I understand it’s there, you know it doesn’t leave, but he had that moment of desperation.

Bill:  Yes, it’s been my cry as well I had a profound encounter with the Lord as a result of continuous prayer night and day for about eight months. The Lord just came upon me in power was October of ’96 and it changed everything since then.

Sid:  Tell me just a little bit about that moment what was it like?

Bill:  Oh, it’s hard to describe, but the Lord came to me in 3:00 in the morning with such power that I had no control over my limbs, my body I had no ability to control my legs, my arms. It was as though a thousand volts of electricity was pulsating through my body.  I had, I ministered to an individual the night before and told them that God was going to visit them and it could be at 3:00 in the morning.

Sid:  Hmm.

Bill:  And when he showed up in my room I saw the clock and the only thing I could move with control was my head, I turned my head towards the clock, it was 3:00 AM exactly and I said out loud, You set me up because I remembered that word I had given a friend of mine.  And the only thing that I knew was that I had no control of my limbs and He reminded me that I had prayed for more of Him at any cost. And He was asking me, reminding me what any cost looks like, that I may never be able to function as a normal human being again.  To be honest with you I didn’t know if I would ever recover the use of my arms and legs.  And as I laid there in the bed with the tears going down the side of my face onto the pillowcase I knew He was asking, I said at any cost, so He was wanted to know if I was willing to look foolish for Him. If I was willing to sacrifice or give up my dignity and I said, “Yes, if I get You in the exchange you can have anything you can make me look anyway you want.”  And that particular encounter lasted all night long lifted in the morning.  I got up and it happened three nights in a row where I just simply had no use, no control over my limbs, it sounds very strange, but something happened, you know I don’t know how to describe it but something happened where everything is different as a result of that.  But I said yes to more of Him at any cost even if it meant I couldn’t function in life as a normal human being if it meant I was sidelined for the rest of my life as a result of a God encounter.  You know Jacob limped the rest of his life, and if it meant I couldn’t function normally that was fine with me if I got Him in the exchange.

Sid:   Now what were you doing, I think you said, “Eight months previous.”

Bill:  I had been to Toronto, I had seen things happen there that we had experienced several years earlier but I didn’t know how to maintain it.  I said “God I’ve got to have more of your, I’ve seen what I know to be true and I give you the rest of my life for this.”  And so I just begin to pray day and night, “God I know there’s more and I’m thankful, but I’m not satisfied.”  And I would wake myself up praying, and I would actually be praying while I was sleeping and wake myself up praying, and this just went on for eight months.

Sid:  Now were you praying mostly with your understanding, or in unknown tongues or both?

Bill:  Both, both, both, both but there was a lot in the understanding, I mean obviously in a moment like that you run out of words and so you pray in the Spirit. I was real specific I knew that that God touched people powerfully throughout history and I didn’t want to miss my chance, I didn’t want to live a whole life knowing that there was more available that I didn’t, that I didn’t grab a hold of so I just cried out.

Sid:  Just out of curiosity in this last week or so, what type of miracles have you seen or heard of from your people or yourself praying, just this last week or so?

Bill:  Just this last week we’ve had three different, in fact yesterday I met with our staff we had three testimonies of Parkinson’s disease healed, we’ve never had that many in one week.  We had a woman that was healed while I gave a testimony during the service Sunday morning or Rheumatoid Arthritis. Another gal was there who had just joined us five weeks ago she had to be fed and bathed by her husband, she was in a wheelchair she couldn’t move her limbs.  Her testimony came forth Sunday; she was healed of Rheumatoid Arthritis as well.  A father met me at the back door and reminded me of praying for his mentally retarded adoptive son about six months ago and they’ve taken him back to have tests and he’s completely normal God has completely healed him.  We’ve had testimonies this week of cancer, we had a gal healed; we shared the testimony this week and actually happened three weeks ago, but she was a missionary from Sudan who had a dream Jesus came to her in the night and said, “If you go to Redding I’ll heal you.”  She had fibromyalgia, she had multiple sclerosis, she had ME and the West Nile Virus, all four of those diseases and she could barely walk 10 – 15 feet without getting winded.  And prayed for three weeks ago Sunday night and she was completely healed, she’s heading back to the mission field this week.

Sid:  Bill, our times slipping away…Mispochah do you like what you hear?  Bill says and I say and better than that God says that is normal; it’s time you get normal.

Sid: My guest Mickey Robinson I’m speaking to him at his home in Nashville, Tennessee. August 15, 1968 he was doing a routine jump, he loved the idea of sky diving it was his passion, he was invincible.  As a kid he wanted to be Superman and that was the closes he could get to flying through the sky and so he’s up for this routine jump and all of a sudden the engine quits it crashes, he should have died, but a brave man pulled him out of the plane.  He had third degree burns over something like 30% of his body; he brain injuries, blind in one eye, ulcers, went down to 90 pounds of weight.  Pain so unbearable that drugs couldn’t do anything for him and the doctors basically they called in specialists there’s no hope, they called in his family and the doctors said he wouldn’t out live this afternoon.  At that point Mickey something happened in your body, describe this to me.

Mickey:  First Sid, I just want to explain I had zero communication with anybody about the spiritual dynamics other than what I leaned as being raised in a church a formal liturgical church.

Sid: You were not born again.

Mickey:  I never heard of anybody that ever was, I heard all about Jesus but never heard of or met anybody who explained Jesus or the power of God or anything.

Sid: You’re part of most of Christian America then from what you’re describing, but go ahead.

Mickey:  In that state of absolute medically they said had no hope waiting for the moment for me to die. Suddenly my inner-man my spirit sat up out of my body and then it was ejected as if I was extracted out and it was like instantly projected into a spiritual world that I now know was referred to as the second heaven. Instantly I knew that this spirit being is the real me you know. A lot of people really want to know what was it like.  The most impacting thing first was the consciousness of eternity. You see as long as we’re on the physical plane we’re always aware of time, you and I got up this morning and likely to go to go to sleep at night.  Somebody is born they’ll die; something is new it gets old, everything on the earthly plane or anything in the physical anything that is physically created is relative to time but everything I the realm of the spirit if is eternal.  And the reality was instantaneous and it was stunning that’s all I could say and everything about it is like it’s like it’s not logic and reasoning you just know that you know.  It’s what we know now that it’s revelation it’s constant in the realm of the spirit the colors are brighter, the feelings are…

Sid: You went from chronic pain where drugs could not help to what was it a euphoric feeling?

Mickey:  Well, first of all I was totally free from the realm of the earth, and I was  I was not conscious of pain, not conscious of any suffering; I was amazed at who I really was which is a spirit man.  Every person that’s alive is a spirit being; we are a spirit soul and we live in a body.  And the immature part which was being projected was being carried out of my body is that my physical body was laying there you know in a death state on bed.  I was traveling the spirit realm and then out of…

Sid: And then medically speaking you died?

Mickey:  Yes.

Sid: Go ahead.

Mickey:  And out in front of me at a distance I was being drawn to like a white corridor, or a white light that was so bright and so white it was white as snowfield. It was brighter than the sun shining noonday.  I looked right at it and was being drawn and it was very alluring you talk about euphoric it was like it was like going somewhere and it was very liberating and it was this intense sense of like going somewhere like traveling somewhere.  It was like one spiritual state to another.

Sid: From the Second Heaven to the Third Heaven; how did it compare to sky diving?

Mickey:  Skydiving is not even a weak imitation.

Sid: You were a man that the ultimate in life was skydiving, and that’s why I wanted that analogy.

Mickey:  Well, everything about the realm of the spirit is stunning. It’s like Earth at its greatest is like flat two dimensional way in compared to like 3-D color, if I give an example.  It’s another dimension the spirit world, I was traveling through there and staring this bright light and experiencing eternity sense, and then all of a sudden I could feel something on my right side and when I turned to look I saw something, it is something that’s blacker than black.  I also had a spiritual perception of the nature of this, it was a bottomless pit with no bottom.  There is no life, there is no matter, there is no opportunity, also I could feel also that it was eternal and in it was absolute hopelessness, eternal separation from the source of the hope of any opportunity for anything, what’s called the outer darkness.

Sid: Out of curiosity if before someone had said “Are you a Christian” would you have answered yes to no?

Mickey:  Well, I wasn’t even really hearing that term; I was raised Roman Catholic, I’d probably said “I’m Catholic.”

Sid: Or if someone had said “Will you go to Heaven,” what would you have said?

Mickey:  Honestly I really don’t know, I would have probably thought, “I’m a pretty good person I’ll probably go to Heaven I’ve done all the stuff they say you’re supposed to do.”

Sid: Okay but now you have come to the realization that you’re going eternally separated; what do you do about it?

Mickey:  Let me tell you the difference I had never heard anything about the plan how you get to know God.  I never heard the gospel preached in a personal way. When they took me in the ambulance for the first time in my life Mr. Invincible, Superman, James Bond all rolled into one knew that I was in some real deep yogurt this time.  My good looks, my talent nothing was going to get me out of this and I said “God I’m sorry give me another chance.” At times when there was so many surgeries when they’re going to put you to sleep and you know it’s serious, I mean I didn’t  realize how bad I was really hurt because I was a battered state, but I just said “God please give me another chance I’m sorry.” So 4:00 in the morning they give you largest lethal dose that’s permitted and it has absolutely no effect for the pain, they give you the largest dose of morphine permitted and it has no affect you’re going to go crazy. Just said “God I’m sorry just give me another chance.”   Now it’s just sweeping in front of me more that it does the more intense the knowledge of eternal separation and I began to cry out “God I want to live, I’m sorry give me another chance.” And just before I’m swallowed by this black outer darkness I’m standing in the presence of Almighty God. Instantaneously I knew I would never die for eternity and I was experiencing instantaneously like bursting into a light I was experiencing the undiluted love of God and it’s indescribable.  It wasn’t coming through music, it wasn’t coming through scripture, it wasn’t coming through a gift of the Holy Spirit it was God Himself directly and just pouring His love into me as a son.  That little weak “I am sorry” got me to the cross of Jesus Christ. I don’t understand the grace of God to that extent.  I didn’t do anything you know in my life obviously to deserve anything, you know in my life to deserve anything, I was living you know like everybody else doing my own thing trying to be a cool guy.  But I saw this darkness and through the crack of that light I stood before God and Sid the glory of the Lord is so incredible.

Sid: Now when you say glory what do you mean by that?

Mickey:  I was standing in what was a river that was flowing from the throne of God you could see the throne of God but on my left flowing from the left to the right.  If you and I could imagine, if the listeners could imagine, see with your eyes invisible radiation. It looked like a river of glowing that had golden flecks in it, and flowing from left to the right in front of me, it was behind me, it was underneath me, and going right through me, and this river is alive, it is an extension of God’s glory.  And I was more alive than anything that you could imagine than being alive You see because your spirit is tuned to the frequency of God. It’s searching for that vibration of God’s love and His glory.  At one with God the most profound way and all of God’s love, and knowing that God’s going to take care I just knew no one had to tell me I mean the knowledge of God surpasses human thought, human understanding. It’s knowing at a higher level that I was going to live forever that God was going to take care forever and His glory was absolutely transforming me.  And then after a season you have to understand that in this realm, in the third Heaven, there is no time you’re experiencing like eternity and the Lord showed me like a screen like today’s TV I began to have a vision of seeing people and places that were to encompass the next 7 years the next second the next minute.

Sid: Mickey, tell me one thing that the Lord showed you that happened in the future.

Mickey:   This is pretty significant I saw my wife Barbara 5 years before I ever met her and saw the house that we were going to live in 6 years before we ever lived there. I could literally smell the flowers that surrounded the house, we were going to have our children and start our ministry.  There was a path leading from the house to a gate that went out to a barn we had horses and I could literally smell the fragrance of the lilac bushes 6 years before it ever occurred.  It’s like being there the vision is just as real as reality in the Heavenly realm.  When I saw Barbara I had really prayed for God to send the woman that He wanted for me. So it was obvious she was not just your average good looking young woman, it was my destiny.

Sid: Mickey we’re running out of time right now.  I have two CD’s the title is “Show Me Your Glory” in which you had such revelation of this realm in which you teach.  And when you teach people literally experience that Glory and have a deep revelation of what happens during worship a deeper revelation of how important prayer are.

Sid:  One new man would release the greatest outpouring in history and I believe, you know every time I say that God must be so blessed I hear about people being healed.  I know that there are people right now that if you have pain in your neck; if you have pain in your back you do not need it any more.  If you will just exercise faith and trust in the word that I have just heard in Jesus Name and move your neck or bend over you will see that that spine is totally straight, and that pain that you had in the neck it is gone.  And there is someone that’s saying, “Well, what if I just have one of those things.”  That’s okay it’s for who-so-ever, and a little trade secret once the anointing of healing starts you could be healed of anything.  My guest Graham Cooke he was as he likes to say “He was the first white sheep in his family.”  He was raised in Northern England. He had an encounter with the Lord and he thought normal was what the Bible says, imagine that.  He thought normal was hearing God and people just wanted to put him into a religious box.  So he goes to his first church service ever and all of a sudden God’s not there and he looks all over he runs into the men’s room he wants to know if God’s okay. He goes out of the church and he finds that God’s there and God said that “He wasn’t welcome in that particular building.”  Then Graham has a dream and in the dream he had several dreams and it was a street he had never heard of he looked it up on the map, it wasn’t even on the map.  It was the map was too old; so he finds this house and in this dream he put his I guess Graham what did you do, put your hands on the washing machine so that it would be fixed, is that what happened?

Graham: Essentially that’s what happened.

Sid:  Okay in the dream.

Graham: Yeah.

Sid: But you don’t know at this point you’re still testing is this really God, so you knew what the woman looked like, you knock at the door and did that woman come out?

Graham: She did, she was wearing exactly the same clothes as in the dream.

Sid:  Okay, so far so good.

Graham:  So far so good and then I just have to get her over the kind of hump on initial embarrassment and so I just “Hi, my name is Graham and I’m a Christian and I believe that God speaks today and I believe that God spoke to me in a dream about you and this is what he told me.”  ‘I know that this is going to sound strange to you, I’m not asking to come in or anything else I just wanted to tell you what I feel the Lord says and you can do with it what you want.”  So she looks at me and then there is a voice behind her saying “What is it, who is it?”  And she says, the lady in the door says “It’s some weird guy he had a dream about me.”  And so she looked at me and said “Okay, what’s this stupid dream then.”  I said, “Well, in the dream the Lord told me that you have a 6 year old son who wets the bed constantly, and you have a small child, your husband’s left you, your short of money and your washing machine is broken down.”

Sid: Well, you weren’t taking any chances if it wasn’t true you are ready to find out.

Graham: Absolutely, yeah “So He sent me here to pray for your washing machine so you get it working.

Sid:  (Laughing)

Graham: Her mother comes to the door and says, “What’s he saying” and so she said, “I don’t know he’s really weird but he’s told me that Dan’s left, and you know Stevie wets the bed, and my washing machines broken down.  And so her mother looks at me and says “Can you fix washing machines?”  I said, “No, but I know how to pray.”  So they look at each other and the daughter says to her Mom “What do you think?”  And she says “Well, get the idiot in.” (Laughing).

Sid: Daniel in the lion’s den.

Graham:  So I’m walking into the house is the local idiot you know that has dreams so, I walk in and there’s the washing machine and it’s broken.  And so I just say “Well, put some washing in, put some powder in.” You know Sid, I didn’t even check the wall socket, the plug was in the socket but the socket was, the switch was in the off position, I didn’t see that until afterwards.  So I laid hands on it and I’m thinking okay, I’ve never done this before but what do I pray?  And I hear this, just voice in my heart say, “Keep it simple.”  I just say in the Name of Jesus I command this washing machine to work.”  And it started, and it did a full cycle of wash, but the switch was still in the off position in the socket on the wall.

Sid:  How do you explain that?

Graham: I think it was just God being mischievous.

Sid: I mean that’s a double miracle as far as I’m concerned.

Graham: So they’re both looking at the washing machine that works, they both looking at the wall socket and then looking at me and they’re saying, “This is weird, umm but thanks.”

Sid:  So you’re no longer the idiot any way.

Graham:  No longer the idiot but no longer welcome but let’s get this guy out of the house as quickly as possible. (Laughing)

Sid: (Laughing)

Graham:  So here’s the thing though the next day. I wake up and the Lord say’s I want you to go back and knock on their door.

Sid:  The same door.

Graham:  The same door and so I went and rung the door well, her mother opened it, her daughter says “Who is it?”  And she says “Oh, it’s the idiot who fixes washing machines, you better come in because the washing machine doesn’t work.”  So I walked in, did the same routine this time I flicked the switch on the wall, did the same routine and prayed, the washing machine worked and they basically almost threw me out of the house.  The next day, the same thing, I go back exactly the same routine another load of washing, pray for the washing machine and I’m saying to the Lord, “I can spend the rest of my life healing this woman’s electrical appliance.”

Sid: Now, wait a second you’re getting a dream a night to go back to the place, is that – or why did you go back?

Graham: The next day the Lord said, “I want you to go back.”

Sid:  Oh, okay.

Graham:  So it’s the next day and so the next two days afterwards after that first encounter each day the Lord says “Go back to that house.”  And so I go back and the same thing I pray for the washing machine, they throw me out of the house.  And so I’m saying “Lord, I could spend like years just healing this woman’s washing machine.”  And He says, “The next time you go tell her to pray and you lay hands on her so she can feel the power of God.”  So I did that I knocked on the door and she said, “Oh, here you are again my washing machine.”  And I said “Okay, this time I’m going to teach you how to pray so you don’t need me to keep coming.”  And she said, “But I don’t pray,” and I said “Well, I’m kind of new at this stuff myself, but this is what you do you lay hands on the washing machine.”

Sid: Now, how old were you?

Graham: I was then 20, so here you are “I’ll lay hands on you, you pray and you’ll feel the power of God go through you and it will hit the washing machine and then after that you’ll be able to pray yourself.”  And so she said, “What do I pray?”  And I said, “Just keep it simple, say in the Name of Jesus, I command this washing machine to work.”  Okay so she prayed.  I felt the power of God go through me, she jumped two feet in the air and washing machine came on and worked.

Sid:  So now you’re out of the washing machine ministry.

Graham: So I’m out of the washing machine healing ministry, yeah which is great and she of course she and her mother both get saved.  And what was interesting, she prayed for her washing machine every day and it worked until the day she could afford a new washing machine and then her washing machine packed up and never worked again.  (Laughing)

Sid: That reminds me of the children in Israel that for 40 years they get the manna, the minute they entered the Promised Land …

 Graham:  Exactly.

Sid: …the manna stopped.

Graham:  Yeah, yeah.

Sid:  How in the world did you figure out where to go to church because the church you went into God didn’t even want to walk in there?

Graham: Well, I started one.

Sid:  Well, that’s a good way to do it, tell me how you started it.

Graham: Well, you know I went to the next house had an encounter…

Sid:  Now, why did you go to the next house?

Graham: Well, the next house I saw in my dream.

Sid:   Oh, that’s right there were two houses.

Graham:  There were two houses so…

Sid: You just thought you’d be stuck at the washing machine forever, okay.

Graham:  So I walked into, I walked along the street to this other house and so I rung the doorbell.  And the Lord had shown me in the dream there was a man there who was unemployed who was in his mid to late fifties who was just despairing that he would ever have another job.  And was just really just letting himself go and was really in a real place of depression and desperation.  So the Lord just sent me with a message for him, so I rang his doorbell exactly the same guy in my dream answered the door.  So I went through my routine, “Hi, I’m Graham Cooke you know I’m a Christian and I believe God speaks and I had a dream about you and this is what the Lord said, in the dream.

Sid:  I’ll tell you what Graham let’s hold that we’ll pick up here on tomorrow’s broadcast.  But I have to ask you this question.  Here you’ve got a book your latest book called “Approaching the Heart of Prophecy” in which step by step you go over the lessons you’ve learned by the Holy Spirit, “How to have this great intimacy with God; How to hear God’s voice, What to do with it when you hear God’s voice.”  Things that you only wish you had known when you were first starting, but do you really believe Joe Q. Christian can have as exciting a life as you have with the Holy Spirit?

Graham: Oh yeah, I don’t think I’m anything special I just think I’m normal, I don’t think there’s anything outrageous about my life at all, I think this is the norm; this is what Jesus died for.  He didn’t die to give us an encounter with someone’s ministry He died to give us an encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ in all of its Glory.

Sid: Then why is it that most Christians aren’t tuned in they’re on AM and God’s on FM and it appears?

Graham: (Laughing) That’s a good way of putting it.  I think a lot of it is that people get saved in their heart and then try to live their Christian life from their head. A lot of what the Lord does isn’t logical it isn’t reasonable.  And you can’t access God with your head you have to access Him through your heart which is the way that you got saved.  So for me life in the Spirit is about living from the heart, it’s about thinking from the heart, it’s about seeing with your heart because that’s where God connects with us in salvation.  So much of what people are receiving in terms of church is often very cerebral very logical, very reasonable, but it’s not God because God is not logical or reasonable.  He’s intuitive, He’s creative, and He lives from His heart.

Sid:  Listen, I come from a Jewish background and I was so excited to be free and know Jesus, and then I went into the church and I found out Christians have caught up with us Jewish people.  Listen we’re out of time but it’s time that you catch up with the Word of God so that you become normal; the Word of God is normal.

Sid: My guest is red hot for the Messiah her name is Theresa Griffith Hurlbert; I’m speaking to her from her home in Northern California and God’s given her a very unique gift.  When she plays and instrument and plays eight other different instruments.  When she plays an instrument the anointing of God is so strong that she literally is prophesying to the heart of the individual listening and people have had things that they’ve buried for years from an emotional viewpoint which affects your health.  Theresa you were in a very abusive situation for 25 years and you were dedicated to making the marriage work, but the counselors and the prophets; and you were literally dying you were bedridden 3 times; why is it that you go through such trauma and stress our body it just shuts down, what happened to you?

Theresa:  Well, just like Proverbs you know “The words have the power of life and death,” and if you are constantly being fed like a plant instead of fertilizer your getting acid the body will tense and the organs inside will tense, the immune system will become impaired.  When the organs cannot do their job you self poison and my blood was highly toxic, I was dying.

Sid: There were at least three times your were bedridden five months and what was the physical diagnosis?

Theresa: Chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, Candida and just a whole list.     

Sid: And it affected your brain.

Theresa:  Right.

Sid: In what way?

Theresa:  I had trouble understanding English, I had trouble talking, I had trouble thinking like occasionally my girlfriend would get me out of the house and push me with a wheelchair to go shopping but if I bought anything I couldn’t figure out how to write out my check so she had to do it.

Sid: Now you could not take loud sounds either.

Theresa:  Correct it was just brutal for me and even music I felt that I needed music to comfort me you know asking friends to lend me worship CDs and nothing was soothing enough.  I was creating harp but even when someone would give me a harp CD it was too fast a beat to bring relief.

Sid: You went through this for 25 years and to have it end in divorce to get you out of this horrible situation, you tried everything possible. So you were determined that it would be the Lord.  You were alone for 4 years and it got tough and one day you cried out to God, tell me about that.

Theresa:  Let me first say for people who are thinking about the verse that says “God hates divorce.”  You know I’ve been a Christian all my life and I’ve never heard the second verse preached “and men who deal treacherously with their wives.” So the Lord brought that to my attention when He set me free and I was resisting and saying “No, I’m going to stay married.”  So people need to here that there’s a second half to that verse.  So any way when I had been single for four years the ministry that I have is so difficult because people free according to Isaiah 61 even.  Even political leaders we’ve played for three governments because of that the enemy – we’re taking territory from him we’re setting people free and he doesn’t like it so I go through some intense suffering because of it.  And I cry out to the Lord because if this is my life, please send me a helpmate because I can’t do it by myself anymore.  And He said “I agree with you; in fact I would like you to make me a list of what you would like in a helpmate, and I don’t want you to stop at just the spiritual things.”  I was hesitant to because it didn’t sound spiritual but He said “I want to show you and not only for you be a sign to my people I want to lavish love on them.”      

Sid: So you’re telling me God’s not a respecter of persons.

Theresa:  Right.

Sid: What He’ll do for one He’ll do for all.

Theresa:  Exactly there are visual tangible sign of proof of His love, I made that list; it was 40 things on the list and you know I started with this “I would like him to be a prophetic musician, someone who is intensely intimate lover of the Lord, someone whose at least healed as much emotionally as I am with a sense of humor, someone who is a gourmet health food cook.

Sid: Now that eliminates me (laughing) and a lot of other people.

Theresa:  You know people say a man who cooks is so romantic and I think that he would bring healing if he was a gourmet self food cook.  I had a number in my mind from the Lord thirty-nine, he had to be thirty-nine.  And people my friends were saying “Let that go,” but I felt in my spirit it was a number the Lord had given me.

Sid:  So He knew who He wanted for you before you even and I believe He was putting these in your heart to ask Him for.

Theresa:  Right and my reasoning in my mind was, “I felt that my prime was robbed from me.” I’m fifty years old and my prime was robbed because I was in a prison and I wanted it back.  And the other reason was because…

Sid: You were not in prison with bars you were in a prison of an abusive marriage, but go ahead.

Theresa:   Exactly right, the other reason is because this ministry is so difficult he better be 39 if he’s going to endure.  (Laughing) and Jeff was a construction worker with rebar, heavy, heavy labor in 115 degrees in Southern California and he says the ministry is much harder than what he did in his secular job.

Sid: Okay you’re husband all 40 things you asked for were true with him?

Theresa:  All 40 things.

Sid: I’ll tell you what before we get to Jeff we’ll talk to him on tomorrow’s broadcast. I want to talk to you about your music for a moment.  We’ve been playing this week an instrumental called “Bliss” what feedback are you getting from people that listen to this music?

Theresa: Well, we just got a phone call from New Mexico yesterday of a lady who had two surgeries last week; she asked the doctors’ if they would play “Bliss” before surgery, during surgery and after surgery?” And they were happy to do that. She said “No pain and expedited healing process,” the doctor’s were amazed with her healing and they were touched by the music as well.  She also said that she had never felt so much peace coming out of surgery.

Sid: Now according to my notes there are also people with high blood pressure, insomnia tell me about that.

Theresa:  Well, we’re just getting many reports, it’s so exciting to get letters and cards from people saying I work in the oncology unit in my hospital, we’re using it when people get IV’s and they’re just having tremendous peace.  My husband used it for the high blood pressure and every time I play it just takes me into such peace.  And one family there’s a lot of emotional problems in the family and they wrote and said they play it and it just brings all into unity and peace.

Sid: How about children?

Theresa: Children are actually choosing it to go to sleep with at night.

Sid: Let’s hear a selection from “Bliss”

Theresa – “Bliss.”

Sid: Theresa that was from your instrumental “Bliss.” Many times you just sing over someone and they’ll be set free; tell me one case.

Theresa: Well, this situation was running from my ex-husband I was ill, I felt very weak. The Lord told me to go to this lady and sing over her and she was in a wheelchair and I was to put my hand on her neck and just say “Be healed.”  And talk about the Lord using the weak things to confound the wise and His strength being made perfect in weakness; I obeyed Him, the lady was resistant actually and I just let it go I just gave her a word, a word of knowledge, and sang over her and she resisted it.  Her friend after I left said “You know what can it hurt to just accept what she said?”  And she said “Okay, I will.”  And she got up out of the wheelchair and ran and she was totally healed.

Sid: My goodness, and I imagine there were times you didn’t even think you’d have a ministry.

Theresa:  Right.

Sid: Mishpochah you may be in hopeless situation as Theresa was in and if God will do this for Theresa He’ll do it for you.  One of the best ways I know to get out of that hopelessness is to have very anointed music that is setting so many people free.

Sid: My guest is red hot for the Messiah her name is Jane Hamon she’s co-Pastor of Christian International Family Church in Santa Rosa Beach, Florida.  Many of you are familiar with her father-in-law Bill Hamon from Christian International and we are featuring her book “Dreams and Visions.” As you said early this week Jane it’s the fulfillment of the prophecy from Joel chapter 2 explain.

Jane:  Well, Joel chapter 2 verse 28 says that “In the last days God’s going to pour out His Spirit on all flesh.”  And that the result of that is that our sons and daughters are going to prophecy, young men are going to see visions, and old men are going to dream dreams. And this is really I believe a promise, a prophetic promise, for this day that we’re living in today, these last days.  I believer that God is pouring His Spirit out on the face of the earth as never before and that He is as a result of that is that we’re going to see our sons and our daughters begin to prophecy, begin to speak the mind, the heart, the will of God.  We’re going to begin to hear God’s voice as never before and in doing that we’re going to hear God’s voice as He speaks to us in dreams and visions and understand the things that He’s speaking so that we can be obedient believers and move on the things that God is saying to us in this season of time.

Sid: Well one of the things I love about your book “Dreams and Visions” is many people that perhaps don’t have a lot of dreams, or never even bother trying to understand their dreams it becomes suddenly activated by reading this.  I guess it’s the old story of whatever you preach starts happening so when they read this book it starts happening.  But how important is understanding your dreams and visions this year as opposed to any other year?

Jane:    You know Sid I really believe that we are living in incredible times. Jesus even said to us that it was so important for us to discern the signs of the times.  And I believe that it’s time for an Issachar generation really to come forth. When I use the term Issachar it says “Of the sons of Issachar that they were those that had an understanding of the times and seasons and they knew what to do.”  And I believe that that’s really the time that we’re living in right now is as we hear God’s voice that we’re going to understand the times and seasons both for us personally in our personal dealings in our personal growth and walk with the Lord, our personal dealings with other people.  I believe that has to do with our businesses with our families, with our ministries. I also believe on national and even a global level that the people of God need to understand the times in which we’re living and we need to be able to prophetically discern them so that we can work with God in whatever acts of obedience He has us to fulfill as well as in times prayer and being watchman on the wall.

Sid: Speaking of watchman on the wall, what is God showing you for this year for Israel, and for this year for the United States?

Jane:  Well, I believe for Israel that it’s going to be really a year of advancement in God’s purposes. I see things moving forward on God’s time table and on the God’s program and agenda for the nation of Israel. But at the same time it is going to be a year of upheaval and a year of national restructuring.  I see that the Lord is bringing new structure into the government of the land and that it’s going to be a real season of the opening of God’s purposes upon the civil government over Israel. I see that it’s going to be a time for believers all over the earth really need to pray for the civil leaders, the governmental leaders, that are over the land of Israel because God is contending with them.  As things are shifting in the land as there is turmoil and even as there is a new season of turmoil and danger that’s coming upon Israel that it’s going to be very important that we’re praying for the leadership of the land that there response to some of the strategies that the enemy is setting up are very proper and very measured strategies and that they’re not reactionary.  I’m must sensing by the Holy Spirit that there are some things that the enemy wants to inflame and that God does not want the leaders of Israel to respond to.  And I believe that their responses are going to proper in measure because the saints of God are really praying for the leaders.  I feel like this is going to be a time, we’ve been talking all week long about dreams and visions. I really feel like this is going to be a season where God is going to pour His spirit out on those civil government leaders over in the land of Israel.  And some of them are going to receive dreams from the Lord, they’re going to receive visitations from angels. I realize that some of these people are maybe not even believer’s in Jesus believer’s in Yeshua.  Some of them are agnostics some of them don’t believe in God at all. But I believe that this is going to be a year that God is going to contend with them and pour His Spirit out upon them and that they’re going to actually hear God’s voice to bring forth God’s purposes through dreams and through Divine manifestations that God is going to bring forth upon them.

Sid: You know Jane I believe there is a supernatural connection between the United States of America and Israel.  It’s almost like our fates are tied, our destinies are tied together.  What do you see happening in the United States?

Jane:  Well, I believe again that this is the year of vigilance for the United States. I believe that it’s not a time to let down our guard in anyway shape or form. We have been praying and believing that God would bring our nation into a righteous shift that it would shift us back to righteousness and that this would happen on every level.  This would happen on a government level, that this would happen in this spiritual level and in both Israel and in the United States God is breathing His breath of revival upon our lands and I believe that it’s really time for us to really rise up and lay hold of it. Really seize the day in the Spirit.  I believe that there’s some very important things that are going to shake both in this nation as well as in Israel during 2006 and this is a time for the church not to be shaken.  You know it says in Hebrews that everything that can be shaken will be shaken so that which cannot be shaken will remain.  And I believe that it’s another season of shaking for our nation as well as for Israel and that it’s important that we stay in a place of alignment.  I feel like the enemy would like to set up some things happening in Israel that would cause the United States to fall out of alignment with Israel and I think that that’s very important thing for the believer’s in the United States to really pray for.  Our President, pray for the leaders that are in our land that we stay in covenant with the nation of Israel.  I feel like that this is a season in the United States God obviously blesses those that bless Israel and as our  nation stays in that proper place of alignment that there is a blessing that is coming to our land.

Sid: Jane we are in history at this precise moment it is so important that God’s children hear from God. I believe God’s given you an anointing to pray for those that want their ears opened, their eyes opened, they have prophetic dreams.  Would you pray for us right now?

Jane:  Yes, Father we thank you so much that we are living in the last days. Lord that you desire to pour Your Spirit out on all flesh. Lord and I believe that Lord that the result of that outpouring is that we will begin to have our spiritual eyes opened, our spiritual ears opened and Lord that we can begin to receive from you the revelation that we need to move forward in Your Kingdom agenda for this hour.  And so I pray right now for those that are in the sound of my voice Lord that they would begin to receive that mantle of revelation. Lord that their spiritual eyes would begin to see, that their spiritual ears would begin to hear.  Lord that every spirit of blindness and deafness that has kept them Father out of the realm of the Spirit of receiving the revelation would be broken.  And Lord that their spiritual receptors Father God would begin to be activated.  That Lord as we are awake Father we will hear Your voice Lord as never before.  As we pray Father that we are going to see visions, as we pray as we worship Father God we’re going to see the supernatural begin to take place in front of us Lord.  And even as we sleep Lord right now I speak and decree an activation of Your dream anointing upon all those that are listening Lord that we’re going to hear Your voice; Father that we’re going to understand what it is that You are saying whether You speak to us literally or symbolically, and Father that we’re going to have a clear understanding of what you’re asking us to do as a result of that of which You have spoken.  And Lord I pray Father that You will not cause us to be hearers only Lord just to have our ears tickled and say “I had a wonderful little dream,” but Father that we will be hearers and doers of the word that you speak. Father I thank You that there are key revelations that are going to come to some business people and I thank you that there are some key revelations and insights that are coming Lord that are giving them the answers to something’s that they have longed sought after as a result in regards to breaking open their business to next level.  And I thank you Lord that there are even some spiritual leaders that are coming into a new season of revelation where they feel like they’ve been hitting a road block, their resources have been cut off, they feel like there things that have been cut off from them.  And I thank You Lord that You are giving an answer to them by the mantle of revelation not just by good wisdom or counsel but Father by the Spirit of Revelation.  And then that You’ll give them the wisdom to walk that revelation out. I thank you Father Lord there are even some people that are politically positioned into some governmental positions.  And Lord I pray Father for a double portion of your mantle to be upon them during these key and strategic times Lord.  Let their ears be opened to hear the voice of Your Spirit.  And Lord let their eyes see that which You desire them to do. Lord I pray for clarity in the interpretation of dreams and visions Lord that each one Father will be able to hear Your voice, know Your voice for surety, let it bring a revival in their own spirit Lord for the purposes of God so that they can move forward and advance Your Kingdom.

Sid: In Jesus Name amen.  Thank you Jane so much.

Sid: I have on the telephone a young man that was much younger the first time I met him. His name is Tommy O’Dell and I’m speaking to him at his office in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Many of you are familiar with his grandfather T.L. Osborn. Tommy would it be fair to say that you’re grandfather has seen more miracles and more salvations than anyone on earth?

Tommy: I think that’s really possible because he’s been preaching for about 60 years now all around the world. Has maybe won more souls in front of huge audiences face to face, and seen more great miracles than any man that has ever lived.

Sid: Now listen your mom is his daughter; she’s a wonderful evangelist in her own right; your father’s in ministry; you’re raised in this family of people that love the Lord. How in the world did you slip into drugs?

Tommy: Well I think this is a mean world. You’ve probably heard the statement that God has children, but He doesn’t have grandchildren. Everybody’s got to make that personal decision, and that’s the beautiful thing about…

Sid: But you know what, I think most people take it for granite. If you have a family like that you’ve seen it all, heard it all, know it all, and you’re born again.

Tommy: Well it’s true a lot of people have that assumption, but you got to have that personal revelation, that personal experience.

Sid: Did you see miracles before you had that personal experience?

Tommy: Well I did, I did…

Sid: So how did you see miracles and not become born again? I don’t get it.

Tommy: I never doubted God’s existence because I was so blessed. Like the Bible says “That many prophets and kings have desired to see the things you’ve see.” They didn’t see them I saw them. I went on campaigns with my grandfather in Monterey, Mexico when I was I guess about 11 years old. I actually was the one that captured the picture of cripples walking that they used on the cover of Faith Digest his magazine. So I never doubted God’s existence, I knew that God was real. I knew that God was a healer, and I believed in Jesus. What I didn’t believe was that Jesus was the only way to be saved.

Sid: Out of curiosity, you had these doubts in the beginning stages. Did you keep them to yourself, or did you talk to your family about it?

Tommy: I think I kept it to myself at first, then later I was very vocal. When I began, they say experimenting with drugs, but let’s be honest most of don’t wear lab coats or have little beakers. It’s more for fun at first you think it’s just a big party. I didn’t have any conscious awareness that I was trying to numb some deep pain in my heart; I was just living it up just having fun. Then later, actually very quickly for me it became serious because I got involved in real heavy drugs, and ended up just burning out my brain.

Sid: Now your parents tried to help you out by sending you to a foreign country with some missionaries. Where was that?

Tommy: They thought the best thing we can do for Tommy, because I had already dropped out of school…

Sid: Oh here it is, Kenya.

Tommy: I dropped out of school, I ran away from home. They said “Tommy please would you go to Kenya?” Thinking that that would get me away from the peer pressure, not realizing the best thing they could of done for my friends was send me there because I was the peer pressure.

Sid: Hmmm.

Tommy: So went they sent me to Kenya, of course I found the same kind of people there. They looked different, but they still you know the same kind of drugs. There I got involved in Hinduism. That’s what really began… See before I was just I guess you’d call me a backslidden Christian. You know…

Sid: Except you were never really there in the first place, but I understand what you’re saying.

Tommy: Yeah. I was saved when I was 7 years old… I never had a vibrant spiritual life. The typical preachers kid of that era where you just kind of assume they’re all going to have their falling away time. That was assumed as part of your journey in Pentecost at that time. Of course what a horrible attitude because kids don’t have to have that experience.

Sid: Paint me a picture Tommy of what you look like, what was going on with you at the bottom when you were just totally out of control.

Tommy: Wow. See it all started all fun and games, but then it became very serious when the addiction just… it’s like an anaconda it just constricts and constricts until it becomes the only thing you can think about. At the end, I was living on the streets; I was covered with my own vomit. It wasn’t a pretty picture usually my pants were stained with my own urine…

Sid: Now how did you support yourself?

Tommy: I would drill selling drugs.

Sid: Hmm.

Tommy: Of course at that point… at the very end there was not even no concept of supporting myself. I slept wherever I passed out. My eyes would barely focus; I’d drool at the mouth; my hair was real long and even falling, you could just take and pull and hunks would fall out.

Sid: Now how old were you?

Tommy: I was almost 17.

Sid: Oh my goodness.

Tommy: It was already over my teeth were brown; my grandmother said I looked like an old man, but the old young man. You couldn’t hardly tell what age I was because I had just used so many chemicals.

Sid: How was your brain, your verbal skills?

Tommy: I could barely talk. To carry on a 3 word conversation was a real chore. My dad said I would walk humped over like a gorilla kind of humped over and a stupor; sometimes forget who I was what I was doing. At that point so many brain cells had died that there was no return for me. It wasn’t a matter of getting cleaned up and going back to a normal lifestyle I was permanently brain damaged.

Sid: Tell me about that worst and yet best night of your life… Did you overdose by the way?

Tommy: Yes I did.

Sid: So I mean it was only probably your parents and grandparents prayers that stopped you from dying in that state.

Tommy: Yeah I believe that. My grandmother said when she prayed for me she actually saw me like in a vision with some sort of dark murky substance like a dark cloud over my head, and staggering and trying to find my way. She prayed for me and interceded for me during that time. My father never gave up; my mother kept praying. That night I was with friends late at night, they were getting sick of being around me. Before I was very popular…

Sid: You mean your own druggy friends were getting sick.

Tommy: These were close friends.

Sid: Now tell me, how did your parents deal with this? How did your dad deal with this?

Tommy: Well my father it was devastating for him. People actually told him “The best thing you can do for Tommy is knock him over the head commit him to some institution and they’ll keep him there in a padded cell, or medicated somewhere where he can’t do any more damage to himself.” The best that they could hope for in the natural was to have me permanently institutionalized. You can go to mental institutions all over this country, all over the world, and see people that are burnt out just like I was. Hopeless, nothing you can do for them.

Sid: But your parents are believers. Now they’re praying. Was there a special way your dad was praying?

Tommy: Well my dad was working for Kenneth Hagin at the time. He went into Kenneth Hagin’s office and asked him. He said “I don’t know what to do, I’m at the end of my rope I’m desperate.” He said “Jerry every time you think of Tommy I want you to cover him with faith and love.” So at first it was real hard to do, but every time he thought and every time he wanted to worry he would do that. He would say “Father I put him in Your hands, I cover him with faith and love.” Then he would quote the scriptures “The seed of the righteous shall not perish,” then the devil would immediately speak to him and accuse. Righteous? “Yeah I’m righteous by the blood of Jesus. I cover him with faith and love.” In a short time, he wasn’t even able to worry about me.

Sid: My goodness that is realm of the Spirit we all should be. (Laughing)

Tommy: That’s right, well peace just flooded his heart. That’s what the Bible says to do instead of being filled with anxiety, and fear. Just make your request known unto the Lord and the peace of God which passes all understanding, in other words, there is no human reason for it; will fill you. So to answer your question, I was friends late that night and I began to overdose. I actually felt myself dying and they had looked back and thought I, in the backseat and thought I had already died. So they stopped the car and they were afraid of getting stuck with a corpse.

Sid: I can understand.

Tommy: We had a lot of stuff in the car and I think they didn’t want to go to jail. Getting stuck with a corpse there would be a lot of questions to answer. So they stopped the car opened the door and lifted me out of the car, and left me there next to the street and drove away. Never expecting to see me alive again. There in the darkness I felt myself dying; I actually felt my spirit leaving my body.

Sid: You knew that was happening?

Tommy: I knew it yeah, and I remember that very very clearly. I didn’t know if I had already died, but I called out on the name of Jesus. I didn’t call on the name of Buddha, although I had studied Buddhism, I didn’t call out on the name of Shiva, or Krishna, or any of the Hindu deities using chanting in my mantras.

Sid: I’ll tell you what, hold that thought

Tommy: Okay.

Sid: I have on the telephone Tony and Felicity Dales they’re heads of a ministry called House to House Ministry in Austin, Texas.  I’m interviewing them on their book “An Army of Ordinary People.”  A must read if you really want to know what the Holy Spirit is up to at this moment in history. On yesterday’s broadcast you were telling me something so fantastic about how countries are being affected in such a radical fashion; take Cambodia there were 600 Christians in the entire country a decade ago what’s happened there?

Tony:  Well, it’s incredible exciting what’s happened a young American missionary went in there understanding the principals of these simple church movements and identified 6 lay people who were ready to work with him in church planting.  And that first year they planted 6 churches, then the next year it grew to you know in the region of 10 and then 24 and then 60.  Within a decade it had grown to the place where there were an identifiable 100,000 Christians within the country and this all through simple house church movements.      

Sid: Now I’m going to take you back to the early 70’s, the charismatic movement, you’re both medical doctors, you’re in England and a phenomena occurred these house churches; tell me what you observed after they started all over the map something happened explain that.

Tony:  Well, you know it’s interesting because this movement there in the UK was called the “British House Church Movement” because all of us were starting churches in our homes.  But we didn’t have any Biblical framework of home church, this was a descriptive terms and as God blessed these churches got bigger and moved from our homes into local school halls, or you know borrowed other church facilities, or bought local cinemas or whatever.  And over the period of 70’s and the early 80’s what had begun in homes really became the mega church movement of the future.  So the large independent charismatic churches in the UK now nearly all grew out of the house church movement of the 70’s.

Sid: Now because you’re there I want you to be candid. I’m sure wonderful things are occurring right now but did it lose something when it left the home and became a mega church?

Tony: You know it really did but a lot of that we didn’t understand at the time, you know were moving with the light that we had and God was blessing and you know people were getting saved, they were getting filled with the Holy Spirit, there was life and so people were congregating to these new churches.  But yes, as we got big we without realizing it we lost the every member participation we began to see things led more and more from the front and so even though most of these church began with real team leadership the larger they got the more important you know “The Leader” appeared and this type of thing.  And so there were all sorts of core values that we were letting go of really without realizing it.

Sid: So what’s the answer who would not want a mega church?  But what’s the answer, now you can look back, what could you have done to have kept the vibrancy of the Holy Spirit?

Tony: You know it’s very hard to say what you could do in retrospect, but prospectively and certainly this is where Felicity and I found ourselves you know back in 1996 when we were starting home church here in Austin.  We said “There were things that we would do differently, instead of just getting bigger, we would multiply; instead of focusing on leadership we would make sure that everybody remained actively involved and you know everyone participating.” Really understanding it means what it says in 1 Corinthians 12.  You know giving honor to the weaker member so that we’re seeing the body of Christ in all of its beauty and not just some of the more obvious gifts.

Sid: Well, you actually had some of those choices to make here in the states in Austin, Texas. You started you know it’s kind of…I find it fascinating the different types of groups that you started. One group was for business leaders, tell me about that.

Felicity: That was the very first group we started, we were involved in business, we obviously couldn’t practice medicine over here and so we moved sideways into business. We knew many unbelievers because of the business that we were involved in. And so we had the idea of pulling some of them together and so we invited about a dozen unbelievers who were involved in the business that we were in. We invited them into our home for pizza and we told them that we were going to look at business principals together and that we were going to use a book as a basis of our discussions it was written by one of the wisest men that ever lived. And so these twelve unsuspecting business people came to our home for supper, pizza, and for a study of the Book of Proverbs.  And it was very interesting, we used a pattern that we’ve used again and again in this kind of context of a very open kind of a discussion where everybody can participate there are no right or wrong answers, but all the time we’re looking to the Bible to provide the authority to provide the basis of the answers that we accept.

Sid: Well, what kind of fruit did you have from such a group?

Felicity: Well, over a course of a year every one of them became Christians and so that was very exciting.  

Sid: In fact there is a funny story you talk about that two of the successful businessman were former ex-drug dealers, tell me about that conversation.

Felicity:  Correct that was a wonderful evening where we found these two discussing together why some of their drug deals of the past doesn’t work because they weren’t following the principals that they were now learning from the Book of Proverbs.  And we were sitting there trying very hard to keep a straight face but just laughing inside that such a conversation were even possible.    

Sid: But I have to tell you as exciting as that particular group you started was the thing that is close to my heart and I believe close to God’s heart right now is a group you started for teenagers, a Bible Club, in which you serve them breakfast tell, me about that.

Felicity:  Well, that followed on from the business people’s one because we were taking those business people to a good church that we were involved in at the time but that moved away to the far end of Austin to sort of a 50 minute to an hour drive and there was no way we could continue going there.  So we went and spoke to the Senior Pastor there and he said “Why don’t you start a church?”  Which was something that we had always resisted the sort of because you know from our experience back in England where there are so many fewer Christians you tend to stay together and you don’t tend to start things you know unless the Lord’s really leading.  And he used an argument that was very persuasive to us because he said “That statistically the best means of evangelism is starting a church.”  And we thought “Okay, we’ll be willing to do it” and we had the teenage kids at the time two was still at home and so we suggested to them that we start a breakfast Bible club with them and their friends.  And we got them to invite all their friends from the neighborhood around us.  And we cooked them a huge breakfast and the kids came for the breakfast but they stayed for the Spiritual activities afterwards.  And again they started becoming Christians and as their lives started changing some of their parents began wondering “What’s happening to my kids.”  And they said, “Can we come too?”  And so we ended up then with a group of many sort of teenage kids and some of their parents.

Sid: Did you see much fruit from those meetings with the teenagers and their parents?

Tony: That was incredibly exciting, yes we did. Over a period of about six months this group it began with 12 to 14 kids it had grown to about 20 kids plus now some of the parents coming because they were seeing the incredible changes in their kid’s lives and then the parents began giving their lives to Jesus as well.  So now we had a multi-age church all though we hadn’t called it that right there in our home.   

Sid: Another area that intrigues me immensely is you started a group in a low income housing project; tell me about that.

Tony: Well, it has a fascinating story because this was just a very clear example of the principals that are outlined in Luke 10, where it talks about Jesus sending out the 70 into everyplace where He was about to go.  And the Lord spoke very specifically to Felicity and said to her “I want you to go and start prayer walking in this particular area.”  And finally after a couple of months she did what the Lord had put on her heart and the second day she was out prayer walking in this rather poor part of Austin she came across this low income housing project.  And as soon as she found herself there on the housing project the Lord spoke into her spirit “I want you to start a church there.”  And you know this was like baffling because we have no natural inroad into a community like Springfield.  But the Lord made it plain, a group of us began praying together regularly for the area, on a few occasions we’d either go individually, or as a group, or Felicity and I would go together to Springfield and walk around the area and pray.  And then one day we were caught in a torrential downpour there, we had parked our car outside of the housing project for fairly obvious reasons wanted to find the hubcaps when we came back. Caught in this torrential downpour we rushed under a balcony for shelter and found ourselves talking with two middle-aged Hispanic ladies.  And one of them Rosa asked us “Well, what are you guys doing here?” I guess we didn’t fit the local profile. So we told her “We had come to the area to pray for it.”  And these two ladies began to open up and through the conversation we asked if we could have opportunity to come to their home and perhaps pray over some of the needs in their lives.  And that was the beginning of an exciting journey of identifying Rosa as the person of peace, of seeing what happens when the Luke 10 person of peace opens their home, you share their hospitality, you begin to touch…

Sid: Listen Tony the miracles that you’ll talk about on tomorrows broadcast but it is so simple and you’ll be so encourage…

Sid: My guest is the sister of Pastor Dave Roberson and he’s been a guest many times on Messianic Vision.  Her name is Donner Roberson and Donner was probably the youngest prostitute in America, I mean she was abused from a very very young age.  She got into drugs, she got into witchcraft, she was hit by a truck but God has His hand on her.  God preserved her life and He came to her in a vision and He literally said “He wanted to take her out of all of this,” but she didn’t even understand this dream that she had in which Jesus came to her. All she knew is she loved Him and she even burned up all her books on witchcraft but it took her a number of years until she finally for the first time in her life started reading the Bible and she got born again.  And unfortunately the devil had another trap for her got her into a very very religious church in which it’s unbelievable Donner what they did to you.  And then you had found another church and you gave them  a prophetic word and they told you to leave and then you got involved in a custody battle of your granddaughter. Which miraculously you won but you made a deal with God, what was that deal?

Donner: Well, I told Him if we win that battle I said “I’ll serve you all my days.”

Sid: Because you see what had happened is that Donner had become so wounded from her experiences in these churches that she wasn’t really walking with the Lord.  She said “Lord, if You will do this I’ll serve You all of my days.” And of course as you said yesterday you didn’t have to make any deal with Hm, He was going to help you no matter what but then how did you miraculously find your brother in another state that is now a pastor in a church?

Donner:  Well that was really interesting because I had been praying for several years in the Spirit again and I started a cleaning business Sid because nobody would hire me, I was a liability they said with all the physical injuries I had so I had to start my own cleaning company just so I would have work.  And so when I was working I would pray in the Holy Ghost hour after hour and listen to worship music and just pray and clean and pray and clean.  And one night I come in from work and I turned on Benny Hinn, I was watching it and he said “I have a word for a lady.”  And that’s what I was thinking I said “I wish Benny had a word for me because I was so hungry for God and he said “Some lady just laid across her bed and said “She wished that Benny had a word for her.”  Well that really got my attention, he said “You just started a business and I just want you to know that God’s going to restore things including your family.”  So that excited me and I was praying even more and I told my son about it.  Well he was taking the landscaper because my son was head over maintenance at these apartment complexes and he ws taking the landscaper to show him the work he needed to do and the landscaper saw a Christian tape in my sons pickup and he said “Do you know Dave Roberson?”  And he said “Yeah, he’s my uncle.”  And he said “You’re kidding.”  He said, “No, he really is my uncle” and he said “You know your cousins here?”  And so he got us in touch with my son and David my bother’s oldest son and then David got on the phone and reconnected me with both of my brothers and just couldn’t believe it because I was in a different state from when the last time I saw all of them.

Sid: How long had it been since you saw them?

Donner:  About fifteen years.

Sid: And you had no way of getting in touch with them.

Donner: No.

Sid: But God had a way so then of course you had that truck accident so you probably had…you were dealing with a lot of pain and other things. But you then moved to Tulsa to  be with your brother Pastor Dave Roberson but what I understand is you were a very sickly woman not just from the truck accident but from your cleaning business.  What happened?

Donner: Well, during that time because I used to work 10 – 12 sometimes 14 hours a day  exposed to these chemicals all the time and I had had cancer earlier in the years so my system was I guess not up to what it should have been.  But anyway the chemicals I got I chemically poisoned and it was going into my bones they said “Bone cancer, borderline and he said “The white blood cells were going crazy.”  I would have sores from the chemicals that wouldn’t heal up for months, I had absolutely no energy I mean I would cry, I’d be so tired and my bones hurt so bad that I couldn’t hardly function.

Sid: So you’re telling me not only did you have a couple hundred broken bones from the truck accident but you also your bones were deteriorating from the chemicals.

Donner: Yes. 

Sid: My goodness.

Donner:  And so when I very first connected with my brother I came to one of his conferences and that’s when I decided to move out so it was in six months I moved to Tulsa.  And I went from a full cleaning business making a lot of money down to $500 a month as a housekeeper just praying and worshiping God.  And it took 3 years for me to walk out of all this but He was healing me emotionally too.  And all of a sudden it was like my health exploded I felt so good, I woke up one morning and there was just no pain, and we were getting ready to go into another conference and I had been praying and worshiping and mediating on the word.  And a lady came up to me and I was helping serve at one of the conferences I was serving the bagels because we serve food in the mornings and a lady come up and said “Can I have a hug?”  And I said “Oh sure.”  And she couldn’t make it back to her chair, it’s just like everything exploded, people were falling out under the power of God.  I couldn’t tough anybody hardly.

Sid: Just as you are sharing that I can feel the presence of God pouring over the airwaves.

Donner:  He’s just…and you know He ministered to me through that five month of solid worship and praying in the Holy Ghost.  At the one point in time it was five months I did the worship continually. And He said “You know,” He said “We really have a lot in common, this was like Jesus was speaking to my heart.”  And I’m thinking “What, what do we have in common?”  He said “I was beaten,” He said, “I was sold.”  He said “I was betrayed.”  He said He told me all these things and I go “Yeah, I guess we do have stuff in common don’t we?”  And I just, I don’t know I just flooded with His love, and I just knowing that I really was going to live, I wasn’t going to die like they said.  And all my healing came through prayer and worship and you know He taught me to change the way I eat and different things too because He wants us to have wisdom.”  But it was just phenomenal what He did in my life.

Sid: But what I’m seeing is He did not do all these horrible things that happened, we know who was responsible, demons and the devil but it’s almost as if you were so crushed that now you have a lot of room for Jesus to fill.

Donner: Yeah.

Sid: What happens when you minister to people, tell me someone that you’ve prayed for recently.

Donner: Well, one of the them was the one I call Kate, when I met her she had been in and out of mental institutions and she was a Christian so the idea that a Christian can’t have devils that’s not true.  And any way she was on so many medications Sid she couldn’t hardly function.  She was so paranoid she wouldn’t hardly leave her home and her Mom had come to several of my meetings and so one time when I was in Louisiana she brought Kate. And I asked Kate I said “Can I pray for you?” And she goes “No.”  And I said “Oh okay,” I said “It’s okay the Holy Spirit’s a gentleman and I just put my hand on her shoulder and the power of God hit her and she said “What did you do to me?”  And I said “Oh nothing Honey the Lord just loves you.”  Well it intrigued her so much she met with me the next day and we talked the three hours. Now I have a letter from a physicist stating that Kate has been set free of so many things and she’s down to one medication.  She was diagnosed with schizophrenia, schizo affective disorder, bipolar, multiple personality disorder and she became posses when she was sixteen, seventeen years old and now she’s forty-five and she’s free and sometimes she travels with me in ministry.  I actually have an enforcement from a physicist stating that this was miraculous because all of the systems of schizophrenia and everything that she had was not curable.

Sid: You know you have learned a lot of the invisible world, but the one thing that I keep hearing and I think it’s amazing while the Holy Spirit was talking to you brother about what would be accomplished in his life life by spending long periods of time praying in tongues you were doing the same thing.  Both of you were getting the same results but when you read his book “The Walk of the Spirit, the Walk of Power” what did you learn from it?

Donner: What I learned how the enemy really does attack your mind and how at times he can even turn people on you you don’t really have to do anything wrong.  Because all of my life I was you know taught to believe I was always wrong and the betrayals and different things or even the betrayals of your own emotions you know if you don’t get your emotions under control they can…I don’t know without the Holy Spirit how people can survive the emotions because you know they can rule and reign in a person and if it’s the wrong emotion they can take you down the wrong path.  Or if you have to have certain emotions just to believe God’s working it can take you down a wrong path.    

Sid: Donner we’re out of time…

Sid: My guest is red hot for the Messiah, her name is Mary Jo, or her family calls her Ma Jo Pennington. I’ve been talking to her all this week about her granddaughter because on September 2^nd 2003 her granddaughter had a freak accident, fell 9 feet on to cement by the swimming pool, off of this sliding board. She should have died but she was supernaturally caught up by as she said “Six Big, Big,” I love to say it “Big Angels” And she had a Heavenly encounter; she saw God, she saw Jesus she saw aborted babies; she saw things that people just read about. She saw, and through the eyes of a 4 ½ year old Victoria.  They taped recorded what she had seen and her grandparents put it in this book but there’s a section here Ma Jo in your book the second time that your granddaughter had a problem in the swimming pool.  Tell me about that.

Mary Jo:  Yes, well we were diving to the bottom of the pool because we saw some leaves down there and we’d bring them up and put them on the float that we had that you could see through it had mesh in the middle.  And then we went over and put the leaves all in the bucket and we came back over and she wanted to dive some more and I was tired.  And so she said she wanted to go down one more time by herself, well she swam down deeper and deeper it’s a pretty deep pool.  As she swam down and suddenly she disappeared, I was looking through the mesh watching her go down and I shoved that thing out of the way so that I could clearly see to the bottom of the pool and she was not there.  And I looked all around the pool, my eyes were just going everywhere I was just scared I mean it really scared me.  She was just absolutely gone and it was 4:00.

Sid: Now wait a second now it was daylight, I mean you can see through a pool, how come you didn’t see her?

Mary Jo:  She was gone.

Sid: Huh.

Mary Jo:  And then it was longer than her fall from the top of the slid to the pavement, it was much longer than that.  And suddenly she came flying out the other side of the pool; didn’t even touch the side of the deck, it was just like somebody threw her from under the water out of the pool and she landed on the deck.  I said “Victoria, where did you go?”  And she just looked at me; I said “Did you go to Heaven?”  And she said, “Yes.”  I said “Who did you see?”  And she just dove into the pool, because I thought she went to see the babies again, she dove into the pool and swam down to the other end and called back over her shoulder, “I saw all of them.”  And that’s all she would tell me right then.  But later with her mother she mentioned this and she told her “I went to the bad place.”  She said I saw the monsters and things that go “Ah, ah, ah, ah!”  I mean she just really, she said “Well, did you see Hell?”  And she didn’t want to talk about that and later she said “That that’s really way down deep,” that she didn’t want ever to go there but she went to the bad place.  I don’t know what she differentiates the bad place from Hell, but she said she had two fiery angels with her that walk in the fire of the Holy Spirit.  And so I asked her, I had transcribed the tape and I knew about those two angels so I asked her “Victoria did you have these two angels with you when you went down to the bad place?”  She said “No, I had hundreds of angels with me to protect me.”  Now you know if you read the book she means millions when she says hundreds because that’s how she describes the angels in Heaven and the babies in the baby place.  And there was many more than hundreds there; but she told me about the monsters and that they look horrible and they got goo and slime on them and these are demons and she calls them enemies.  And they trust in satan. She said “If only he went down there by his self then he wouldn’t have any many.  What she meant was “If satan had been thrown down by himself he wouldn’t have many demons,” but she said any many.  That’s the only way she could say it as a 4 year old.

Sid: And of course as he Bible states he came down with fallen angels so he had a lot of demons.

Mary Jo:  He did have a lot of them and she was just saying “If only he only was thrown down by himself he wouldn’t have any many because they are so many and she was so frightened of them.  And the reason as she saw and she heard him speaking and she heard these other big demons that were princes over things that they thought they were kings.  And then she said, she said “They’re really big and they’re really mean and they get the people.”  She said “Those are the really bad ones that get people.”  The biggest one that was king, she said “He’s actually not a king, Jesus is the one that is the King.”  And she went on to tell what satan said to his demons down there trying to whip them up into shape so that they would come and get more people.  And he actually admitted in this passage of transcription of that I had of her satan admitted that they’re getting saved by the hundreds, that they’re turning, but they’re spreading the gospel way down to 100 people which again means untold millions of people are turning to God in this time of the end.  It’s going to be a tremendous revival. As she went on to describe she saw the people, she said “They were in water, they were in fire water and they live for 100 years and never die.”  And she said “That they was bald, all of them was bald and that they were dragging more people down there and they’re so skinny.”

Sid: Do you think she was describing the lake of fire?

Mary Jo: It had to be that and she said “The people were so skinny” and her voice broke and she said “I don’t even know how to handle that.”  That the people were so skinny and so bald and they were living and she said “They lived actually lived in the water, it was fire water; the lived in it for 100 years and you never die.”

Sid: Can you imagine assuming the Lord tarries and your granddaughter grows up to be older and starts preaching this; I mean what kind of an evangelist will she be.  Do you believe that God’s called her to be an evangelist?

Mary Jo: Well, she said not 2 weeks ago we were talking about why she was brought back.  Because she wanted to stay in Heaven, she said “She was brought back to preach but not while I’m a little kid, when I’m a little older.”   

Sid: Huh.

Mary Jo: But I don’t have the power now, but she knows she ordained to preach.  

Sid: Was she traumatized by this visitation to this bad place which is a type of Hell?

Mary Jo: Well, she was fearful for a time but this was also about…this was the time that she was going through the fear of God.  Because Jesus took her there not to scare her, but to prove to her that He was much bigger than them, she said Jesus is much more bigger than them because He could even protect me because I’m just a little wee girl.  And see she had been afraid of the demons up to then, but He wanted to show her His power and might because she didn’t have any reason to be scared of the demons.  She didn’t have any reason to be afraid to talk about Heaven because He wants her to talk about it, but she had reason to be fearful of Him because He’s the most powerful.  And so that’s when she started being…when I would pray at night “Lord send your angels to protect Victoria.”  She would slide down under the cover and hide and then she started, when I started to say angels she’d slap her hand over my mouth.  She was afraid of a visitation of angels.  I said “Victoria, what are you afraid of?”  We prayed against the demons, we cleansed the house, we taught about the demons to get them away from you.”  She said “Ma Jo I’m scared of the angels, I’m scared of Jesus and I’m scared of God.”  So he was putting her through this fear of God school that many ministers have spoken about where she only feared Him and did not fear the demons.

Sid: But the thing that set her free you told me was when she had her encounter with God and God put her on His knee.

Mary Jo:   Well, yes when she was afraid when she went into the throne room and she saw all of the…she wasn’t afraid of God because she had already seen Him dance at the baby place but

Sid: Dance?

Mary Jo:   Dance. 

Sid: How did He dance?

Mary Jo:    He pulled His robe up between His legs and tucked it in His belt and He danced and He hugged my relatives.  But He danced at the baby place and so did Jesus and so when she got to the throne room was what scared her was the things with all the wings and the faces and the eyes and the wheels and she was just so scared of that.

Sid: The thing described by Ezekiel.

Mary Jo: Yes, yes. But when she got within where she could see God more clearly He motioned through His mind and hers.  He never had to use His voice they spoke by their mind and He said “Come over on My lap.”  And she went and climbed up His leg and onto His lap and crawled across His lap and she was not scared anymore.

Sid: You talked about dancing, did she see much dancing in Heaven?

Mary Jo: She said everybody in Heaven is either singing, laughing, or dancing.

Sid: So how did these churches say that you don’t do dancing, these denominations?

Mary Jo:  I don’t know.

Sid: In fact I think I recall rereading in the book they were dancing in circles.

Mary Jo:   They were doing wonderful dances much like the Jewish dances and she in fact showed us on the side of the pool they hold their arms out the side of each other and they go sideways and they run and jump a little and they were going in circles. And as she was describing more or less Jewish dances; let me just say one thing here.  We were at a Messianic Jewish Church not long ago and it was a holiday and they were singing in Hebrew. And she was singing every word in Hebrew that they were and I was just staring at her, the people on both sides of her were just staring at her this little girl who couldn’t even see the screen that they had the words on.  And when we sat down I said “How did you know the words?”  She said “Well, that’s a song we sung when we were dancing on the crystal sea on the sea of glass.

Sid: My goodness what kind of feedback are you getting from people that read this encounter this 4 ½ year old your grand-daughter Victoria had going to Heaven?

Mary Jo:  Everybody is just…they can’t get enough of it. Some people are ordering huge amounts of it just to give it away because they’re so excited about it.  It’s just; it’s just going to make such an impact because it has so many different things for the body of Christ and for the world and for people who have been hurt.  We’re getting so much, we had no idea that it was going to impact people this way.

Sid: And yet you felt God told you to write the book, He gave you the title.

Mary Jo:  He did.